Dennis Nilsen: The Kindly Killer (Part 2)

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[01:28] Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. [01:45] This is Morbid. What's up, Big Red? You know, everybody, it's that time of year. Yeah. We got [01:58] in the office. Yeah. There's a lot of nasty things still going around right now. So wear your masks if you feel so inclined. Yeah, you should. And be careful out there. Yeah. Wash your fucking hands. Yeah, wash your goddamn hands. Goddamn it. If more people just wash their fucking hands. We'd be in much better shape. Like, I can't. I'm not even getting into it. It's true. Just wash your hands, you know. It's how, like, you know, the Black Plague started. Exactly. It washes its hands or it spreads disease again. [02:28] In my in one of my bathrooms. That's where I got it from. Yeah. But yeah. So there's still a lot going on in the world. They still have not located Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy. [02:41] And there's a lot of like stuff happening in the case, but also none at all. Like it's very. [02:47] Very wild. It's just a very interesting situation, and it's really sad, so I just can't stop... [02:53] looking for updates. I feel so bad for that family and I hope that there's a good update soon. Yeah, that's the thing. I keep looking, being like, ugh, please tell me that something happened here. I know. Also, just give them answers because it must be hell not having any answer. Yeah. I can't imagine that. I'm trying to think of anything else that I can offer as a fun... Oh, there's more signed editions of The Butcher Legacy that were just added. We initially had like a

[03:23] a big chunk at Barnes and Noble of signed editions of the butcher legacy. Nice. You guys gobbled them up and then people said, Hey, I didn't get one. [03:31] And Elena said, I'll say more. And I said, no. [03:34] girl i got you she said honey i said give me more to sign so i got more to sign she said what's a wrist yeah what's a wrist she said arthritis never heard of her yeah purple tunnel what's that who knows and i did see like a couple of people were asking like are these really signed like hand signed or are they uh printed [03:54] Which would be like a big bummer. They're hand signed. I promise you that. Does that happen a lot? I don't know. When I got the question, I was like, do people do that? I wouldn't think so. You just get like a printed version? Kind of less cool. Kind of a bummer, I feel. But no, these are hand signed. I have a box literally right next to me right now. I can attest. I watch her sign many, many, many, many, many [04:13] Tip-ins? Tip-ins. Tip-ins a day. And I've just been, I'm signing whenever I can. So go gobble those up. You can pre-order them now. The book comes out August 11th. Gobble them up. But pre-order now so you can get your signed copy because I love you and I want you to have your signed copy. Hell yeah, brother. And you know what? If you don't want the signed copy or if they run out, go get a regular copy. Just get you any copy that you can. Pre-order. You can go to butcherlegacy.com and you can pick where you can get it.

[04:43] that great stuff. Everything is great. Just make sure you get a copy. Yeah, just get a copy. Pre-order that shit. Or else you'll feel left out because everybody listening to this mostly probably has a copy. Yeah. So if you're listening and you don't have a copy yet, that's a little bit of a letdown for you. It is. [04:58] You might not know what happens. And we don't want that. And you know, it's not too late to buy all three. It's true. It's not too late. So you can always buy all three. You can. That's one. You have free will. Yeah. You can buy all three. It's a great use of free will. I would say adult money. You got it. [05:14] use it adult money this is what you can't take it with you so i always think that whenever i buy something crazy i go i can't take it with me can't take it with me but i can take this book with me yeah you can hell yeah put in your back pocket it back i went to martin's noble the other day and i got reckless up in there hell yeah i bought every book that emily henry has to offer you went into a flow state i went i went into a flow state i got this book bunny that oh i've heard a lot [05:44] everybody raving about that book and I've been wanting to get it and I like always look at it and I'm like I don't know I don't know I bought it yes I thought you should but first I'm rereading the butcher and the wren and I reread the butcher game yeah and then I'm gonna read for the first time butcher legacy and that's my that's my reading list right now and then I'm gonna definitely need to go back to a place of romance yes absolutely it's like a palate cleanser but my goal I got this I got them for both of us actually oh yeah hold on I got these little books [06:11] book counter things and yes they they come with four little cubes and i'm like who's reading a thousand books thank you i i was like who gets the four digits i was like i need if you're getting to four digits tell me your secrets tell me how you do it um but hold on let me get to my delivered tab over here but yeah there's and you can get these little like charms quote unquote with them so i got elena a ghost and a candlestick yeah it's so cute and i got myself a little teacup

[06:41] Let me find where... [06:42] I got them on the TikTok shop. I'll send Mikey the link to the show notes. Yeah, we can link it. [06:47] Because it is a fun little way to count. I buy so much on the TikTok shop. It's really sickening. The TikTok shop has me in a chokehold. Same. A true chokehold. Oh, my God. Okay, so they're elegant designs, but the E in elegant, the first E is a three. Oh, man. And they're a silver star seller. Oh, my God. So, yeah, I'll give this to Mikey to put in the show notes and get you a book counter because it's fun. And my goal for this year is to read two books a month. I think that's a good goal. Yeah, I'm trying. And if I can do more, I'll do more. [07:17] But in January, I read two. [07:19] I need to get on my shit. I just haven't had a lot of time to because... Well, you also write the books, so it's hard to read the books and read the books. It's hard to read, but it's necessary as well to read the books. And write the morbids and say the morbids. It's a lot. There's a lot going on. There is. And I've been going through final edits and all that, so I think that now that I'm through that, I can finally leisurely read. But I'm still making my way through Fantasma. There you go. And I still love it. I'm still having so much fun with that book. [07:49] keely smith fun fucking book i'll add that to my tbr book it really like i was like wow i want more books like this [07:57] I wanted to spend even more time in Barnes and Noble last weekend, but there were so many people there. I went on a Saturday. Oh, fuck that. That's your problem. I didn't think about it at all. And then I got there. I'm sorry. There was a lot of kids there. And I was like, shut the fuck up. No, you got to go. If you can get there during the week. And I can. That's A+. I can. Or at night.

[08:19] Yeah. Oh my God. Nighttime Barnes and Noble is lovely. I went a few weeks ago just after Christmas on like a weeknight. It was beautiful. Yeah. It was beautiful. That's really where it's at. Yeah. Uh, and there's [08:30] really no way that I can segue from that beautiful discussion of one of my favorite things in the world, which is books. Yeah. To Dennis Nielsen. I couldn't really think of a good one either, but we did it. Here we are. Here we are. We're back. We're back to Dennis Nielsen. She says this is going to be the worst part. This is going to be rough. The second, because we're going to do this in three parts. The third part, you're going to be like, yay. I got a message from a UK listener [09:00] this is going to be a three-parter three-parter they were like in my worst boston accent i said no sorry i didn't mean to be so proper about it i know uh it's gonna be a three-parter kid hey uh and in part two uh-huh [09:14] We're going... [09:16] deep into the depths of the most hellish shit you can possibly think of. So let me get my fucking hazmat suit on. Yeah, everybody get ready. But don't worry, because I'm going to follow it. [09:27] with part three, which is going to give us some more hella shit, but it's also then going to end with some, some justice. We love justice. We need that. So we left you with Dennis beginning his killing spree. He had finally done it. He had shown that he has necrophilic tendencies as well. Desires. He likes to keep his victims around after he, after they're deceased.

[09:55] for a while under the floorboards and i and i think he's called the kindly killer because he kind of like [10:02] his victims first. Oh, okay. And he does come off a little unassuming. Yeah. I haven't fucking Googled this one yet. So on October 11th, just a few weeks after the bonfire, that he... [10:19] that he did himself to get rid of Stephen Holmes' body. After that bonfire, it was only a few weeks after that, that Dennis went out to St. Martin's Pub, where he met and started chatting with a young Chinese college student named Andrew Ho. Okay. After a few drinks, Dennis convinced Andrew to come back to his apartment with him. He promised him a large amount of money for his company. He's a scary looking guy. He is, but he came off, I'm assuming, I think. No, he looks super normal. He came off a little like... [10:48] nerdy and just kind of like quiet. Once you know what you know about somebody, you can't unknow it. It's true. So he promised Andrew a lot of money for his company. And at the apartment, Dennis poured two more drinks and the conversation turned to the subject of bondage. [11:04] Andrew informed Dennis that he wouldn't mind being tied up or doing the tying. Okay. [11:11] Now, Dennis agreed, but insisted that he wasn't interested in any sexual intimacy. [11:17] Okay. He was just interested in the bondage part. This struck Andrew as like a little strange because he was like, okay, this guy invited me back to his apartment. He offered me money for my company, which in my experience leads to one thing. Yeah. But instead, Dennis tied a cord around Andrew's feet and told him that he was afraid he might have come there to rob him.

[11:38] Okay. Once Andrew's ankles were secured, Dennis grabbed a necktie and wrapped it around Andrew's throat. And he pulled it tightly and he just started admonishing him for going home with a stranger while he did this. Oh, that's fucking gross. [11:54] Had Dennis not loosened his grip at the first sign of panic from his, from Andrew, he, [12:00] it seems entirely likely that Andrew would have suffered the same fate. [12:03] as Stephen Holmes but he did he loosened his grip he saw Andrew panic he loosened it a little bit I don't know what the intention was there but in that instant Andrew used the opportunity to like turn out of his grasp or get himself out he grabbed a candlestick from the table and hurled it at Dennis the chaos of all of this also gave him the opportunity to remove the rope from around his [12:33] to get away. Now about an hour later, the police come knocking on Dennis' door because Andrew had reported the whole thing. Yeah. And that was like a big deal for him to [12:43] to, like, go and report this. Yeah. Because... [12:47] He was technically involved in a transfer of money. Right. For company. Which is illegal. Which could get him in trouble. Yeah. But he felt it was that important and that serious. Okay. Well, yeah, because somebody that does this to you is going to do this to other people or likely has already. And he clearly felt like he was going to go further. Now, despite the complaint filed against him for assault, the police at Dennis's door seemed completely uninterested in what,

[13:11] Either of them had to say. I'm like, huh, same, same police department that he worked for. Yep. Dennis told them that they had been drinking. And while it was true, he had placed a necktie around Andrew's neck. He insisted he'd only done so because he wanted to show him how dangerous it was to go home with a stranger. [13:28] You can't do that, though. No, of course you can. Like, truly. So after proving his point, Dennis claimed that he threw Andrew out of his apartment, and that was the last time he saw him. He was like, I was just proving a point. And once I had, I told him to get the fuck out of here. Okay. And it's like, that's not what he said. I bet. Now, given his personal circumstances and all that he stood to lose, Andrew decided not to file a complaint. Like formal charges. Like a formal complaint against Dennis. [13:58] police could do besides just question him. But looking back at this, a lot of activists see the disinterest of law enforcement and the social stigmas around the gay community to have allowed him to continue killing people. Very much so. Yeah. That was very clearly, yeah. [14:15] a big part of this. You mentioned it in part one. It sounds a lot like the Jeffrey Dahmer case. It really does. And it's like the same exact things played out. Yeah. Like this, Andrew ran out of that apartment. He got the police and the police weren't real. I mean, they, I guess they questioned him, but that's really all they were interested in doing. They didn't want to go any further. And it's like, maybe keep tabs on this guy. Yeah. Who's coming and going from the apartment. You know, like who's going in the apartment and not coming out. Exactly. Just see what's going on.

[14:45] done a proper investigation and caught Nilsen, 15 victims might still be alive. Yeah. 15. Yeah. Yeah. [14:52] The close call with the police probably should have served as like somewhat of a deterrent to him. But he also saw that he got away with it. He did. That's the thing. And it should have at least for a while served as one, but it didn't do anything to stop him from finding another man to lure back to his apartment. Just emboldened him. Because like you said, he saw that he got away with it. [15:22] Yeah. [15:46] Now, in Kenneth's presence, Dennis felt more relaxed and comfortable than he had in a long time, he said. [15:52] I guess Kenneth reminded him of his close friend from his days in the service. Oh. This guy's name was Derek Collins, his friend. Okay. And he just kind of like... [16:01] went back to that time. I think he really, that was the only time he felt kind of like normal. At ease. A little bit, yeah. But that said, the pleasantness of this whole night was offset somewhat by the frustrating and very disappointing knowledge that the next morning, Kenneth would be headed to the airport to return to Canada. It's like the knowledge that people have free will. And get to leave when they want to. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like, if you had actually had a great evening with him, you could try to connect with him and

[16:30] keep talking but it's also like i think he had that experience once before with the was he engaged to the man that um uh they weren't engaged but they were living together and then he saw what it is it didn't work out yeah now in in with a mind that is healthy i was gonna could you could understand that like that happened but it's not always gonna happen he's not a sound mind now in his recollection of uh kenneth's murder [16:55] Dennis Nilsson said it must have been well after midnight. All of a sudden I was dragging him across the floor with a cord around his neck. [17:03] All of a sudden. I was saying, let me listen to the music as well. [17:07] He didn't struggle. He was dead. [17:09] What? So he just is like, all of a sudden, boom, cord around his neck, dragging him down, like saying, let me listen to the music as well. That was the part that I was saying, what? Yeah. Who like? Yeah. [17:19] Yep. So he strangled Kenneth. And when he was convinced that he was dead, Dennis removed his clothes and watched his body as he'd done with his previous victims. Then he returned him to his bed where he assaulted the body until he fell asleep. [17:35] Wow. Yeah. [17:37] now a few hours later Dennis cleaned up the mess in his apartment then he moved Kenneth's body to a large cupboard in the kitchen [17:45] then threw away any evidence that Kenneth had been in his apartment. And in the days after that, Dennis periodically removed Kenneth from the cupboard and dressed him. [17:54] Oh. Decomposition had set in a lot faster than in the case of the Holmes murder. So Nielsen was

[18:02] basically required to [18:04] in his mind, to wash the body. [18:08] And apply makeup to hide the natural, like, decomp. Wouldn't washing it... Wouldn't washing the body just make it worse? It would not help. Like submerging it in water? But he's trying to... [18:18] He's trying. Okay. He would then pose the body in various positions around the apartment and take photographs. [18:25] Oh. [18:26] Yeah. Okay. In the case of Stephen Holmes's murder, the body under the floorboards caused Dennis a lot of anxiety and was a source of dread, but also occasional excitement and arousal. This time, though, Dennis's, you know, the body of Dennis's body. [18:44] most recent victim, excuse me, he became more of a play. And I'm referring to it as the body because that's what he was using it as. Right. He wasn't looking at it as Kenneth anymore. This is his [18:56] his body. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I just don't want anybody thinking I'm like not [19:00] treating Kenneth as Kenneth. This was no longer... [19:04] who Kenneth was. Right. But like I said, with Stephen Holmes, like being under the floorboard, that to Dennis was like very nerve wracking, very, it made him anxious a lot, but then he would take Stephen's body out and that would get him all, [19:18] happy again. But this time, [19:21] With Kenneth, he was more of a playmate or a house guest to Dennis than anything else. I wonder if that's because he had shared more of a connection, one, when they initially met. Like more time together. And then two, he had already gotten away with this, so he might have been more emboldened that nobody was going to come knock on the door and interrupt this. So I can experiment a little more here.

[19:51] he found like comfort in the weight of him laying there he was also beginning to show signs of deepening psychosis at this point I'd say so he said later Dennis said later I would sometimes speak to him as though he were still listening I would compliment him on his looks and anatomy [20:09] What? And each time when he was done, he would just wrap Kenneth's body tightly in plastic sheeting and put him back under the floorboards of the kitchen or in the cupboard. [20:19] Okay. Yeah. [20:21] Isn't it wild that like while we're living our like next to this I'm going to call our lives like normal. Yeah. You're just like going about your normal activities and there could be somebody in the world doing this shit. Yep. [20:34] That ever hit you? Yeah. Like that could be happening right now. Yeah. [20:38] Just like... [20:39] Yeah. We're going to go like get your kids ready for dance and somebody else is going to take a body out of their cupboard, dress it up and watch TV with it. You have no idea what anybody is doing in any house that you pass by. Do you know? You can't eat in everybody's house. [20:53] Oh, no. This show has ruined me because I drive past people's houses all the time and just think... [21:00] What the fuck could be going on in there? What are they doing in there? What the fuck could be going on in there? Because odds are, you drive past a lot of houses in your life. [21:07] Some weird shit's going down in some of them. Absolutely. You know? Yeah. [21:11] Of course.

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[23:08] neighbor, State Farm is there. [23:14] When weeks passed, though, without word from Kenneth, his friends and family started growing concerned. His mother, Audrey, reported him missing to the Metropolitan Police Force in London, and even flew to England to aid in the search. But just as with the case of Stephen Holmes, there was little evidence to indicate where Kenneth had gone. Audrey Ockenden, his mother, [23:40] to the press, the police at Scotland Yard were, quote, reluctant to get involved because Ken Jr. had been missing for less than a month. So much of the search fell to the family, who were unprepared and completely unfamiliar with the city and the country. [23:54] which is awful that it like fell on them to find try to find him. Kenneth's father said, I'll stay until something turns up. We hope every day that there'll be some sort of information. Oh, that's awful. That's heartbreaking. Like his family was just like, I'm not leaving until I find him. How could you? Yeah. Months passed and the search continued, but nothing much came of it. And despite having kept a very detailed diary of his movements around the city, Kenneth's entries stop on the afternoon of December 2nd, right before he met Dennis Nilsen. [24:24] haunting and there was no indication of what happened or where he went that day dennis kept himself company with kenneth's body for several weeks but eventually the cold space beneath the floorboards couldn't stop the natural process of decay so he stopped taking kenneth's body out of its hiding spot okay

[24:41] In the months after this, Dennis carried on with life as usual until May 17th, 1980, when he met 16 year old Martin Duffy, who was a runaway. A few days earlier, Duffy had left his parents' house, telling them he was just going to the library. [24:57] Okay. [25:16] In many ways, he was kind of an ideal victim at this point for someone like Dennis Nilsen. Yeah. [25:22] He came from a troubled home. He had struggled with his parents since reaching his teen years. Yeah. He's not from this area. Yeah, he's not familiar with this area. He had been picked up by the police for shoplifting on several occasions. And a lot of times, he would stay out all night at the bars around the Liverpool area. So this wasn't like immediately setting off alarm bells. At one point, Martin's parents had become so frustrated with him that they had him committed [25:52] treatment there um after his just discharge from the facility martin genuinely seemed to want to turn his life around even managing to stay off drugs and maintaining a job that's great by all accounts things were going well for him until april 1980 when he was picked up by police for evasion he was let go with a warning but for whatever reason that incident caused him to backslide into his old habits yeah and on may 13th he packed a small suitcase and left his parents

[26:22] When he ran into Dennis Nilsen on the night of May 17th, he was bordering on desperate. He had no money. He had no food, nowhere to sleep. Oh, that makes this a million times more sad. He was, I mean, quite simply, and unfortunately, he was the perfect target at this point. Yeah. By the time they got back to Dennis's apartment... [26:42] Martin was already exhausted and wasn't likely to remain awake for very much longer. And so they sat on the couch and chatted. But after just two beers, Martin said he was tired and wanted to go to sleep. So Dennis offered him the bed. [26:56] A short time after that, Dennis crept into the bedroom and attacked Martin. [27:00] uh nilsen later said i remember sitting astride him i strangled him with great force in the almost pitch darkness with just one side light on underneath he said when he felt him go limp he carried him from the bed to the kitchen where he filled the sink with water and held martin duffy's head under it until the bubbles stopped coming to the surface my god he said i must have held him there for about three or four minutes [27:25] Thank you. [27:26] Like that's a long time out of nowhere. You just get up and like strangle this boy. Poor kid. Once he was convinced that Martin was dead, he laid him out on the floor and undressed him, then carried him to the bathroom and placed his body in the bathtub. [27:40] Thank you. [27:41] After the last two murders, Dennis washed the bodies in the bathtub. This time, though, he also removed his own clothes and got into the tub and bathed along with his victim. [27:52] What? Yeah.

[27:54] When he was finished, he returned Martin's body to the living room and placed it in a chair where he could just admire it. What the fuck? He said, I talked to him and mentioned that his body was the youngest looking I'd ever seen. That's absolutely disgusting. So he's a pedophile now. [28:12] Wow. Necrophiliac, murderer, pedophile. You can't get worse. Initially, Dennis kept Martin Duffy's body in the kitchen cupboard. But after two days, decomposition had significantly disfigured his remains. So he placed his body under the floorboards and left it there. In the days that followed, he threw away Martin's clothing, his suitcase and other belongings, erasing any sign that he had been in his apartment at all. [28:37] It's like he just disappeared. Did he eventually burn Kenneth's body or was Kenneth's remains still under the floorboards? He was still under the floorboards. I'm wondering, like, is that apartment starting to smell? I'm sure it is. Now, when Dennis met Stephen Holmes at the pub in December 1978, it's reasonable to assume he hadn't [28:55] intended at that moment to murder him. I think he just like didn't know what he was going to do. Yeah. Kind of thing. But by committing that first murder, he had indulged his darkest fantasy. I think at that point it was a fantasy to him, a dark fantasy, but he made it, but he didn't really, he didn't plan. I think that one, [29:13] far ahead of time, you know? But now he's premeditating. But now he's indulged his darkest fantasy and there's been no negative consequence. Yeah. At all. And if anything, yeah, there's been subtle cues to keep going. Exactly. You know? Now, following that murder, he claimed he'd made a promise to himself, the first murder, Stephen, that he said he was never going to let that happen again. Right. And then he did three more times. But just a few months later, he very likely tried

[29:43] or even desired at the time to become a killer. But once he had done the first murder and gotten away with it, that desire and his urges and his fantasies, it just overruled any moral qualms that he may have had with these acts. And it just took him over. Because he's not, I'm not saying he's insane, but he's not living in reality. No, something is very off here. Something's working. You know what it is? He's just deeply entrenched in dark fantasy because that's all he's done [30:13] world. [30:14] Now, over the course of the next six months, he would go on to murder five more men. Only one has ever been identified. [30:22] of those five men. [30:24] Yeah. [30:25] That's horrible. In August of that year, he met Billy Sutherland, a drifter from Scotland who supported himself primarily through sex work. Although he wasn't like Nilsen's other victims in a physical sense, like he was older, he was covered in tattoos, just different physically. Sure. His background and marginalized status made him an ideal target for Dennis Nilsen. Sutherland had a history of petty crime, stealing to get by whenever he couldn't find work, and he rarely stayed in one place for long. That's kind of what he was looking for. [30:55] Sutherland met Dennis at a pub near Piccadilly Circus, and the two men spent the night going from one bar to another until closing time. [31:02] Now, at the end of the night, Sutherland mentioned that he had nowhere to go. So Dennis was like, hey, come back to my apartment. Later, Dennis claimed to have no recollection of killing Billy Sutherland. Interesting, because that happened with the last victim, too. It's just like all of a sudden they're dead. He only remembers that he, quote, strangled him from the front and that there was a dead body in the morning.

[31:22] Quote, [31:22] Okay. Given how forthcoming Dennis was about his other crimes, it's likely he might actually be telling the truth here. Okay. Because I don't understand... [31:34] Why... [31:35] Just one he doesn't remember? Yeah, why he's so forthcoming with some and not others. [31:39] A few weeks later, Billy Sutherland's mother reported him missing to the police and the Salvation Army. But he was just one of hundreds of men who'd gone missing from London over the years, 41 of whom were named Billy Sutherland. Wow. That's actually wild. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Also, given his lifestyle and criminal history, particularly sex work, [32:00] The case wasn't given high priority, especially in that time period. It's so shitty. It's that whole, they consider them less dead. Yeah. That still happens. Yeah, absolutely. And even if it had been, no one would have thought to look for him under the floorboards of Dennis Nielsen's apartment. It just wasn't, there was no, there's nothing connecting him to him. No. Now, in the months after Billy Sutherland's murder, Dennis's drinking continued to spiral out of control. Which I'm sure only is making his fantasies and lack of. [32:30] touch with reality worse. No, during the day, he was able to maintain his employment and keep up appearances. But at night, the alcohol blotted out all the darker parts of his personality. That's the other crazy thing. He's you have to think he's doing all of this. He's getting this drunk and then he's just going to work and going to work. [32:47] Going to work... [32:48] And talking to people while having bodies in his floorboards. Because he's like a job search consultant, right? Like, that's... What? Like...

[32:58] What? Now, between... [33:00] September and December, he would murder four Mormon. [33:04] all in more or less the same way as everybody else had been killed. They would meet at one pub or another, and after a few drinks, Dennis would invite the man back to his apartment, where they would listen to music or watch a movie while they continued drinking. Once his guests had been subdued or incapacitated from alcohol, Dennis would climb on top of him, straddle him, strangle him with a cord or a necktie, and then when the man was dead, he would wash the body, spend as [33:34] He would store the body under the floorboards and set out to find a new victim. He's just keeping everybody in the floorboards at this point. [33:41] It's wild. And these victims, when I say he killed four men, he killed five men, they remain unidentified to this day, unfortunately, or I would have given names. Throughout this period, he started compartmentalizing in a way that allowed him to continue killing without hesitation. Yeah. And without interrupting his appearance of normality, which is like he literally he's a very interesting case of compartmentalization. Yeah. You can really put it over here and just be a totally normal person. [34:11] Yeah. [34:14] He would later say, I never thought of them again at work until I came home that evening. [34:19] That's how much he can compartment. I think he, some people, especially evil people, or people that are deeply, deeply fucked up, they can literally separate parts of their brain, I think. And they can just put it over here and it's not there. I once had a therapist told me I was really good at compartmentalizing. I mean, trauma can make you really good at compartmentalizing as well. Even to like...

[34:43] I know that I'm good at compartmentalizing, but to that degree, I can't. I can't imagine compartmentalizing that. I'm extraordinary at compartmentalizing. Not to toot my own horn, I don't think it's necessarily always a good thing. No. No, honestly, in fact, a lot of times it is a detriment. A lot of times it's very bad. I'm really good at it. Yeah. And I think it's just... [35:05] Some brains can do it, some can't. But I think to this extent, there needs to be some deeply... [35:12] deeply fucked up parts. [35:14] of you that are allow you because I can compartmentalize things that I think, you know, like a lot of times compartmentalizing is in is tied in with survival. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like I can compartmentalize to be like, you know what, that's not helping me be productive here. So I'm going to put it over here. Same here. Yeah. [35:31] He's compartmentalizing evil, dark fantasy, but still... [35:37] Yeah. Be part of like day to day society. Exactly. Which is crazy to go to work and not think about the bodies under your floorboards. Yeah. [35:47] I can't conceive of that. I can't conceive of that. But I can't conceive of anything he's doing. No, exactly. There's such different... [35:55] species of human. You know what I mean? Like there's such a different subsect of human. It's so funny. I meant to mention this earlier when we were getting our nails done the other day and we were watching that video about the climber, the guy who just recently climbed. Alex. [36:09] He just climbed that skyscraper on Netflix. Let me look it up really quick. Hold on. But I was just thinking when they did that MRI on his brain and they saw that his amygdala like doesn't respond to fear like a typical amygdala actually does.

[36:39] like a person like this, their brain, that does not fire like a typical brain fire. Yeah. You know, I also thought that was really interesting to watch. I did not think I was going to be. I was not going to lie. His name is Alex Honnold. I was literally talking shit about it before I started watching it. I was like, why would I watch that? [36:55] Yeah. Couldn't stop. Yeah. Alex, what is it? Honnold. Honnold. He climbed like a skyscraper in Tempeh. Tempeh. Yeah. I was like, it begins with a T. Um, yeah. [37:06] He like free climbed it. Yeah. With like no rope or anything. It's honestly, it was live on Netflix and John and I, remarkable thing. We turned, I know we're going off on a tangent right now, but this is what you come for, but I can't help it. This is how my brain works. But, [37:21] John and I were turning on something. Oh, we were turning on Frankenstein on Netflix, I remember. And I opened it, and that was on the homepage. It was live when he was actually climbing it live. And I was like, what is this? And we were like, let's just see it for a second. And we were like, we're not. This is crazy. We put it on. We watched it till the end. I had to watch him get to the tippity top. I was fascinated by it. He did it in less than two hours. And it's called Taipei 101. It's a Taiwanese skyscraper.

[37:51] world. Yeah. But... Highly recommend watching it. It was very interesting. It was really good. And then I actually do want to finish it. We didn't get to... [37:59] The documentary. The documentary. I'm trying to find what it's called. I think it won an Oscar recently. Isn't it called like Free Solo or something? It's about Alex free solo climbing El Capitan, which is like the... [38:12] One of the craziest rocks. Free solo, good call. Free solo, yeah. But that part where they do scan his brain, I wanted to bring it up on the pod because I do just think that's really fascinating. It is. And I think we could really get somewhere. Yes. And, you know, maybe we could possibly treat serial killers someday if we figure out what in their brain is going wrong. Or think it'd stop them before it could get to a certain point. [38:42] gets to a point where it even starts becoming an issue. Recognize it when they're a kid and be able to treat that ahead of time so it never becomes even slightly in fruition. [38:53] There's got to be something different. Because Dennis said once he was in his apartment, it was like he was in an entirely different world. [39:00] And you leave that day job and it was totally different world. It's wild. He said, I remember being thrilled that I had full control and ownership of this beautiful body. I was fascinated by the mystery of death. [39:13] Which is like, cool, you're fascinated by death. That's okay. Go to the body farm. Go do something good with it. Go do something that can help people or...

[39:24] Like, what are you doing, sir? You're killing people. Like, he wants complete dominion over somebody else's entire existence. It's very Jeffrey Dahmer-esque. I would be very interested, and maybe we should do it at some point, to compare and contrast the two of them. [39:42] They seem to have the same desperate need to keep – because Jeffrey Dahmer said the same thing. He said, I just wanted them to stay. He would do anything for them to stay. And that's not – [39:54] saying that like, oh, these... [39:57] these they just wanted them to stay you know like there's something so off in their brain that they're like no i want them to stay and i will literally do anything to keep them staying right whether they want to or not that's the important like i don't care about a person's autonomy i don't want them to have autonomy like jeffrey dommer tried to create zombies like i was that's what i was actually just gonna bring up yeah and i don't i mean morally in part two does dennis nelson never do that [40:22] He doesn't go full Jeffrey Dahmer. So I guess that's the contrast there. But I wonder even what that is about, where it's like Jeffrey Dahmer almost wanted to make these people alive again in a certain way. Whereas Dennis Nielsen is just happy with. Well, he likes to turn them into dolls. Dolls. Yeah. Which is. [40:40] a similar it is similar pathology in a way because regardless of what it's a it's a different mechanism or pathway that they're taking to get there but either way they want to end with complete control control of the person right one of them is just trying to make it so that they're more um animated animated there you go and then the then dennis is just saying well i'll just put them where

[41:10] I think we would find more comparisons than contrasts. I think so. But in September 1981, Dennis was returning home from work when he spotted 24-year-old Malcolm Barlow. Like many of Dennis' victims, Barlow looked very young for his age, and he led a very difficult life. Both of Malcolm's parents had died when he was young, and he was raised in a rotating selection of foster homes and residential facilities. That's awful. Yeah. [41:35] In addition to cognitive and developmental disorders, he also suffered from epilepsy, which... [41:42] He generally lacked the capacity and resources to manage without any help, which is so sad. That's tough to manage with help. Yeah. He wasn't really able to maintain employment for very long, so he would have to turn to sex work to get by a lot of times. And sometimes he would... [41:59] He was kind of desperate for money most of the time and desperate to get by and just get fired. [42:05] food in his mouth and shelter at times. So sometimes he would go as far as like blackmailing the men he slept with in order to extort money out of them. It's just part of like a whole con thing. Yeah, it's pretty common. Yeah. Now on the morning of September, I'm not saying it's okay. No, not good. That happens. It was part of like that craziness. Yeah, it's like desperation. On the morning of September 17th, Dennis left his apartment for work and he'd only made it a few

[42:35] sidewalk with his back against a stone wall. Dennis stopped to see if he was all right, and Barlow explained that the pills he'd taken for his epilepsy had made him dizzy and his legs had given out beneath him. Dennis helped Barlow to his feet and brought him back to his apartment, where he fixed him a cup of tea and called for an ambulance. You might be seeing why he's called the kindly killer with these kind of things. The ambulance came a short time later, and once Barlow had been taken away, Dennis went to work and thought nothing more of this incident. It's really [43:05] was shown there. That's the thing. Like, that's not. He's a strange cat. He's a strange cat. Don't even call him a cat. Get out of here. [43:23] Summer is the perfect time to rethink what clothes you're reaching for every day. With the warmer weather, you want lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment that you put them on, and also look effortless. That's where quince comes in. You guys, I love quince. They focus on high-quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It looks like luxury, it feels like luxury, but you don't get that markup. [43:51] It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond. I actually was getting ready for the spring recently, so I said, Quince.com, please. And I got a couple of their linen skirts. They are, first of all, so freaking comfortable. They come in the cutest colors. My favorite one that I got is in this yellow color. It just makes me feel like sunshine when I get all dressed.

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[47:38] Okay. [47:39] Until that point, Dennis's murders had been definitely psychosexually motivated. Yes. For sure. And... [47:47] Again, very loosely planned. Yeah. You know, like kind of sloppy, kind of just of the moment. Yeah. But in the case of Malcolm Barlow, the murder was not planned and it wasn't really motivated, like, by anything sexual. It was really just like... [48:05] in Dennis Nilsen's mind that he presented... [48:09] an inconvenience for him. Oh. For the second time in two days, this stranger had, according to Dennis, interrupted his life, and here he is again needing to possibly provide emergency care for someone he didn't know. This is according to Dennis. Yeah, of course. I take back what I said about empathy. Yeah. And given the events of that day, who's to say Barlow wouldn't be discharged from the hospital and show up at Dennis's apartment again and start the cycle over again? Again, this is according to [48:39] Yes, yes, yes. This is where his wild mind goes is not, oh, I helped this guy and I did a good thing. Right. And then this guy showed back up thinking I'm a safe place because I did that for him. [48:52] And just wanted to hang out for a little while. He's like, no, now he's just going to rely on me. [48:56] Yeah. So... [48:58] Instead of calling the ambulance or police to have Barlow removed from his house because he's still not sure if he's having an episode or if he just passed out, Dennis made the deliberate decision to go to just get rid of him.

[49:11] He said later, putting my hands around his throat, I squeezed tightly. I held that position for about two or three minutes and released my hold. I didn't check, but I believed him to be now dead. [49:21] so with barlow now dead dennis put him in the cupboard where he'd stashed all the others and then he returned to the couch he finished his drink and went to bed [49:32] Wow. Just that casually. It's interesting too because I don't [49:36] I don't know if I'm right here, but that's the first time he's manually strangled somebody. Yeah, it seems like he's using like a necktie or a cord. Yeah, so it's interesting that he was like irritated beforehand and then manually strangled. That is an interesting little difference. Yeah. So by the time he put Barlow's body in the cupboard, Nilsen's apartment had become so crowded with dead bodies that he needed to do something about it or risk his neighbors catching on to what was happening. [50:06] in his environment. I'm surprised it could even get past a certain point. Like that we're only now reaching that point. Well, it was in the colder months. The decomposition had been stalled. Right. But with the warmer weather, the bodies under the floors started decomposing at a rapid rate. And with that process came the inevitable odors and bugs. Oh, yes. He had tried to hide the evidence of death by covering the bodies with deodorizer spray and insecticide. [50:34] Oh, my. But those did very little to mask the obvious. Not insecticide. Further complicating things was the fact that just a few weeks earlier, his landlord had informed him they were going to be renovating the entire building and were asking everyone to move out. At first, Dennis resisted. But when the landlord offered him like a good sum of money to leave the before the end of the lease, he happily accepted.

[51:04] A few days before he was moving out of the building on Melrose Avenue, Dennis Nielsen removed the bodies from their hiding spaces one by one and dismembered what was left of the remains. A relatively easy process, given how much time had passed in the decomposition. Once that was complete, [51:23] He carried the remains out to the bonfire in the back garden where he disposed of Stephen Holmes's body and burned what was left of his victims in a roaring fire. In order to disguise the smell of burning human remains, he threw an old tire into the pit, hoping the smell of burning rubber would ward off any questions. Oh, I feel like that would make it even worse. It absolutely did. But he could just say it's the it's the tire. OK. [51:53] attic apartment on Cranley Gardens. You might remember that from part one in London's Muswell Hill neighborhood. The layout and location of the apartment immediately presented a problem for Dennis because it had no private garden and was an attic unit. So there was no space between the floorboards. It is maybe because of those factors that Dennis would ultimately wait several months before committing another murder. Yeah. [52:17] Now, it wasn't like he didn't think about killing in this time. Like that wasn't like he just was like, you know what, I'm not going to be that person. And he even came pretty close one night in late November. On the afternoon of November 23rd, he met 19 year old Paul Nobbs, a student of European studies at a local bookstore.

[52:36] They chatted for a short time before Dennis invited him back to his apartment for dinner, and he agreed. After Dennis prepared dinner, they sat on the couch and watched television while having a few drinks, the normal thing he does. After one or two drinks, Nobbs called his mother to say he'd be home soon. He was only 19. But a short time later, he began feeling ill and called again to say he was instead going to stay the night with a friend. The next morning when Nobbs woke up, he was very hungover. [53:06] He woke up. He made it through the night there. So he staggered to the bathroom. And when he looked in the mirror, he saw he had a deep red mark around his neck and some bruising. Oh. Though he had no recollection of what had happened or what could have caused the injury. So he was likely drugged. Yeah. Yeah. [53:23] Before leaving, Dennis gave Nobs his phone number and told him he should go see a doctor because he looked terrible. [53:31] What? After leaving, Paul stumbled down the street to a local pub where he ran into one of his friends from school, and the other man helped him get to the University College Hospital nearby. Upon being examined, the emergency room doctor informed Nobbs that, quote, his symptoms were consistent with a classic case of strangulation. [54:01] Oh my god. [54:03] He never reported the incident to the police, and when the doctor asked what happened, he said he'd been mugged.

[54:08] Okay. [54:09] Now, [54:10] Maybe his inability to store the body somewhere in the apartment prevented Dennis from fully murdering Paul Nobbs. It's crazy, though, to think that obviously he started strangling him and stopped at some point. The fact that he stopped is not something we come across very often. No, and the way, like, how deep that was and how, like, intense that was, he obviously stopped and started a few times, I think. That's probably why he took so long to recover, because... [54:37] I wonder, like, lack of oxygen to the brain and all that. Yeah, that's really scary. He probably, it's awful. But this might be why Paul Knobs lived, is because he had nowhere to store his body. Right. Which is crazy. [54:49] horrifying to think of. So if he had somewhere to put you, you were going to be gone. But whatever the case, Dennis's, you know, little pause on like moratorium on murdering people wouldn't last very long. [55:03] In early March 1982, Dennis was drinking at St. Martin's Lane when he saw a face he recognized from the pub a few months earlier. [55:10] Like many of Dennis's victims, John Howlett had a long history with the police. And after being kicked out of his parents' house at age 13, he'd struggled to support himself, frequently resorting to petty crime. How do you think a 13-year-old? I know. It makes me so sad. It really does. Dennis met John at the pub in December, not long after he moved to Cranley Gardens, but he didn't invite him back to his apartment that night that he had met him.

[55:40] at the bar and ordered a drink, but when the bartender took too long to return, John suggested they leave and go find somewhere else with better service. Dennis agreed, but rather than find another bar, he was like, let's go back to my apartment. [55:53] And I can make us some dinner. Yeah. So they went back. Yeah. But around 1 a.m., John excused himself, implying that he was going to the bathroom. When he failed to return after 10 or 15 minutes, Dennis went to look for him and found the man asleep in his bed. [56:06] Oh, because remember, he's he's been kicked out of his house since he was 13. Yeah, probably doesn't have a whole lot of places to stay. He's probably just tired. Yeah. And also, I think there's a very high likelihood with how fast these people are passing out that he's drugging them. So Dennis roused him and suggested he call a cab to take him home. [56:24] and John said no thank you and he was like I'm too tired to leave and [56:29] which does suggest drugging. That's Dennis Nilsen's version of events, too. Exactly. I tried to get him to leave. Yeah, I wasn't planning on it. Like Malcolm Barlow, John represented a change in Dennis's pattern. Although he had picked the man up at a bar, it seems like he had no interest in engaging in sex with him or killing him, which is two of the things he usually wants to do when he picks someone up. In fact, according to him and according to all accounts, he had tried to get... [56:57] John out of the house a few times that night. And John's refusal to leave and inability to leave is what I think it was. [57:07] straight out refusal right um it is according to dennis so profoundly irritated him that he ended up for the second time really that we can point to killing out of pure anger okay other than his usual motive according to dennis he said i went to the armchair and under the cushion there was a length of loose upholstery strap i wound this material around his neck i think i said it's about time you went

[57:33] Oh, okay. [57:34] When he says, I think I said it's about time you went... [57:39] Think about that in your head, how fucking scary that is. Yeah. [57:44] This man is about to strangle you and saying, I think it's about time you went. Yeah. That's just so, like, gross. It's so scary. It's so cold. Yeah. [57:51] He said using all of his strength, he pulled hard on the strap as he straddled John, causing him to wake with a shock because he's asleep when he did this. For the most part, Dennis's victims were younger than he was and generally smaller in stature. So they were he liked that he wanted to easily overpower them. Right. John Howlett, on the other hand, was a former military guardsman and was obviously larger and more powerful than Dennis. [58:21] Oh, no. [58:42] 10 minutes until he was certain that John Howlett was dead. My God. Dennis left his body hanging over the edge of the tub. [58:51] And then just returned to bed and went to sleep. [58:55] What? These are the parts of these stories that like... [59:00] I like obviously killing another human being is unthinkable, but then like these strange aftermaths are the things that really get me. Like he just finishes his dinner and he just leaves him hanging over the edge of the tub.

[59:13] And then just gets in his bed. [59:16] And goes to sleep. Meanwhile, I actually can't sleep on my right side because if I do, my back is to, like, an open space in my room. And I'm, like, too afraid of the unknown there. [59:27] And this man's just going to sleep with a dead body that he just killed in his bathroom. Yeah. Yeah. [59:33] Like, I'm afraid of ghosts in my home. Yeah. Yeah. [59:36] And this man is just... [59:38] I can't go to bed with a full sink of dirty dishes. That gets me. I applaud that. That gets me. I applaud that. I will have... [59:50] trouble. [59:51] going to sleep knowing because I will think about that dirty sink full of dishes and I'll be like, I'm going to have to do that tomorrow and I can't do it. I can't do it. John's the same way. [1:00:00] This man is going to bed... [1:00:04] With a young man who he just brutally murdered. His body hanging over the side of the bath in his bathroom. [1:00:14] I just can't. My brain will not wrap around. Because human beings, and I mean, lately I feel like in the world right now, my brain is struggling with humans lately. That's good, though. Like, I'm just sitting there being like... [1:00:28] I don't understand how people are like this. Like, I don't understand how as a species... [1:00:33] We are this... [1:00:35] fucking horrific. Like I really can't. And I don't get how some of us [1:00:40] aren't [1:00:42] But some of us are. I'm like, where did that come from, babe? That's what I mean about the brains. We gotta... That's the thing. Yeah, I don't know. Because...

[1:00:49] How are we so different? I don't. And it's like, I don't ever want to think that anyone has the capacity to do this. [1:00:56] unfortunately a lot of people have that's the thing with so many people have the capacity to do this and it's [1:01:03] really scary to think about when you really deeply go... [1:01:07] go down that road. A lot of men have the capacity. Yeah, this is just I also think studying the difference between men and women's brains would be interesting. Oh, yeah. Because obviously, but like there are women killers, but there are so many more. Yeah. Male killers. Of course. So it [1:01:25] is there something in a man's brain that is more likely to, to set off and like what is it? And like, [1:01:32] do i don't know you know yeah it just i just brains man because you could like it's like killing someone is such a something you can't wrap your brain around you just can't like snuffing out someone else's life no i actually can't i have dreams sometimes where i've killed somebody or i find out that i've killed somebody and i like feel the guilt in those dreams of like how am i supposed like i nightmares how am i supposed to go how am i supposed to go on and like i i can't [1:02:02] of like [1:02:02] leaving the body in your apartment while you just go to sleep that I'm like, [1:02:07] That shit is up a register. It's just like, it's just like what? And now you're just going about your business. [1:02:13] I just don't, or just going to sleep with a dead body in your apartment. I can't go to sleep if I like think I've been rude to somebody. The guilt I feel for like the smallest interaction versus snuffing out someone's life, I can't imagine. Or like being in the Lizzie Borden house. Knowing that people were murdered in those rooms, I was so fucking scared of being in those rooms because I'm like, and that was from like a billion years ago. Somebody was killed in this room and they

[1:02:43] like physically there and it's like neither is the person who killed them and i was so freaked out just to be in that i was like oh my god like yeah they're here no me too and these people are just going to sleep with a dead body in the room yep [1:02:56] And then they just have no fear response. It really is. I'm like, what is your amygdala doing? Like, I got to know. I don't know. Because it's in the amygdala. Yeah. And it's in so many other places, too. I think actually a fun bonus episode idea would be to look at the different parts of the brain and what they're responsible for and how it relates to crime and decision making in general. That's a good bonus episode idea. Yeah. It's horrifying. Yeah. [1:03:23] Now, no longer able to hide the body in the cupboard or under the floorboards, again, because he's in that little attic and he couldn't dispose of it in the garden. He dismembered John Howlett's remains and wrapped them tightly in plastic. And then he placed them in various discrete places around his apartment. [1:03:43] What? Yep. Okay. Also, not knowing what else to do with the rest of John Howlett's body, he flushed the organs down the toilet and other small pieces of flesh. [1:03:56] He also boiled John Howlett's head, hands and feet. [1:04:01] Okay. You know, I remember how part one opened. Yep. So Dennis Nilsson's first set of murders committed at the Melrose Avenue apartment had all seemed to go more or less according to how he had planned them or barely planned them, I guess. But beginning with Malcolm Barlow's murder right before he left the apartment.

[1:04:23] He appeared to have been becoming more erratic and impulsive. He was killing not out of like some kind of pathological need to. He was just doing it when the opportunity presented itself. Yeah. And this is going to... [1:04:36] prove to be his undoing. That's good. [1:04:40] And we're going to end part two right there. Okay. Because I... [1:04:44] I can't really talk about any more dismembered parts right now. Okay. And I'd like everyone to sit with that one. And just know that he gets caught in the next part. He does get caught. And he takes some more lives before he gets caught. But he does get caught. I didn't expect that. Yeah. All right. Yep. This is the cutest fun fact I've ever heard in my life. And now I love knowing this. Dogs tilt their heads when you speak to them. [1:05:14] better pinpoint familiar words. [1:05:16] You know that I know that. I am obsessed. I try to get Dolores to tilt her head when I talk. They are actively listening to you when they do that. I'm obsessed with that. This is from Science Focus, and it says, your dog is tilting its head when you speak to pinpoint where noises are coming from more quickly. This is done to listen out more accurately for familiar words, such as walkies, and helps them better understand the tone of your voice. If a dog doesn't tilt its head that often, [1:05:46] less on sound and more on site. Yeah. I'm obsessed with that. You know where I heard that? Tell me. The girls watch this show called Brainchild. I probably mentioned it on here before, but if you didn't hear me mention it, it was on there and they loved that fact. They'll tell you that fact all day long. I'm surprised they haven't. Brainchild is a great show on Netflix for your kids to watch, by the way. Is that the one where they did that hearing test and it showed that like older people

[1:06:16] remain crashing out about that yeah i was not in a flow state but no but brainchild really good for kids my kids love it they've learned a lot of cool like science stuff yeah they're always telling us cool facts i'm obsessed i love that fact i if i speak in a higher pitch yeah dolo always does that and i'm oh now i know what's happening and i love it so much i love that i love dogs i love cats and i love animals i love i'm gonna be one of those old ladies with like a fucking like [1:06:43] farm good like shit tons of animals let's go girls i want to be all right well i'm obsessed with that i'm obsessed with you guys wash your hands don't kill people don't do it don't spread disease um and fuck ice yeah [1:06:57] Alright, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird! But not so weird that you keep people in your apartment that don't want to be there anymore. No, let people have autonomy. Let people out of your apartment if they'd like to go. Gosh darn. [1:07:15] . [1:07:18] Thank you.

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