The Red-Hot Knicks, OKC’s Beat-Up-Wemby Ploy, a Mini-Mailbag, and ‘Survivor 50’ | With Rob Mahoney, Jason Concepcion, and Mallory Rubin

[00:00] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [00:07] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. [00:30] of Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit TrimphiaRadio.com. [01:01] . [01:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals finally is here. We are down to four teams. I think you know it'll go down. Take your shot with FanDuel. [01:16] Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay. [01:26] for a shot at a better payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off, or just follow me and my picks, because every once in a while, I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuo Sportsbook app.

[01:37] Right now. [01:39] and play your game. [01:40] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [02:16] Bill Simmons Podcast live here on Netflix. [02:21] Euphoria season three. I think you've done a great job. [02:24] Uh... [02:25] Coming up on this podcast, Rob and I are going to talk about... [02:28] Knicks, Cavs, the Knicks are up to nothing. We're going to talk some OKC San Antonio. We're going to do a mailbag. And then a little bit later on, [02:34] Jason Concepcion and Mally Rubin together. [02:37] - Talking Survivor 50, three hours last night on CBS. [02:41] That is the plan for tonight. [02:43] All right, nine straight playoff wins for the Knicks. I'm going to start here. [02:47] We had some injuries in the game last night, San Antonio OKC. I don't know. Harper, it seems like, might be back for game three, but definitely not 100%. And then J-Dub, who knows? [02:56] Darren Fox, high ankle sprain. The Knicks have won nine straight playoff games. [03:01] Is it fair to start thinking about the title if you're a Knicks fan at this point? I mean, now you're just daring them, right? Yeah.

[03:08] You don't want to get ahead of it. Let's look at it this way. Josh Hart came out of game one. [03:13] with a ton of humility and was like, I understand. This isn't about me. I'm going to do whatever the team needs me to do. I'm going to accept my role in the series. And the basketball gods rewarded him with one of the shooting performances of his life. So if you're a Knicks fan, I would say, don't do anything that's going to get you in trouble. Be responsible out there, including not looking too far ahead, even though it is very tempting right now. Take it one game at a time. But I will say this. I thought the winner of Spurs... [03:39] And, uh, and thunder was going to be the winner of the 2026 title. [03:44] The injuries are definitely going to even things out, plus the fact that the Knicks have been on a heater. I was really impressed with... [03:50] how they attack Cleveland. [03:53] Because at halftime, the Cavs hadn't shot that well. Mm-hmm. [03:57] And yet it was a close game, which I always, I thought the Knicks were going to win tonight. [04:01] But it was a close game at halftime and it felt like the Cavs hadn't gotten going. [04:05] And I was like, this is interesting. [04:07] Hart took 12 shots in the first half. That's a bad sign. You don't want him to take the most shots on your team. Are the Cavs going to make a run? And then all of a sudden, the Knicks went the other way. They went on an 18-0 run in the third quarter. Hart did end up taking the most shots, right? Yeah. He had a ton of shots. I mean, he took the most shots by any Knick not named Jalen Brunson at any point in these playoffs. So it was— Oh, my God. And was dared to do it.

[04:37] this than being dared to be a scorer when you don't have that reputation you deliver in this huge way in this huge moment and you get the satisfaction of winning you get the satisfaction of scoring a bunch of points you get the satisfaction of proving people wrong and you get really the icing on the cake just getting to rub it in constantly after every three after every like drive it's just got to be a pretty sweet night for josh hart yeah it's like a double middle finger [05:01] Really? You're going to give me this again? I'm making him. Josh Hart, I don't know if every playoff team has a guy like this, but Josh Hart is definitely the [05:09] If he's playing well, the Knicks seem pretty unstoppable guy. [05:12] right? We've seen this in playoff series. We saw this in some regular season games. When he's going, they just suddenly look pretty formidable. I thought Brunson was [05:24] Outstanding tonight. Yeah. [05:26] In a way, like a better game than he played... [05:30] In game one, even though he went on that heroic heater down the stretch. I thought the game management tonight. [05:37] figuring out immediately what they were doing. He went back to his old Villanova running the show kind of ways. They just dissected that trap at the top. They were playing four on three. I liked everything they did. I got to say, I got to hand it to Mike Brown. I think the Knicks were really well coached in that game. I was impressed. Really well coached for the last several weeks. I mean, they've just looked like a team that has answers to everything, that knows exactly when to pivot and how. Yeah, if you're looking at the box score for this game, it may feel like Jalen Brunson was under wraps. [06:07] and you're right he was so surgical about it and i think a huge part of why the knicks are here now and they feel as dominant as you mentioned up top is they've reached this point of of stability in their offense where no one feels like a specialist like josh hart can have a game like this that's explosive but mikhail bridges was doing everything offensively and was awesome cat is driving really responsibly and hitting threes and posting up og and an ob can overwhelm like any defender in front of him at almost any time right now they're just in such a comfortable place because all of these

[06:37] And that's a credit to Mike Brown, but it's also a credit to Jalen Brunson for understanding how to tap into everybody. [06:43] And Bridges got going really since midway through that Atlanta series where that trade seemed like a disaster. Then it didn't seem like that bad of a disaster. Now it's like, hey, if they don't make that trade, maybe they'll win the finals. But I really like how he's playing. I thought he was really good in game one. [06:58] And in general, like, you know, you have guys sacrificing all over the place on a team like this. [07:03] But as you get closer... [07:05] This is 10 playoff wins for them now as you get closer. [07:09] to the ring, suddenly it doesn't matter. And that's why somebody like Josh Hart, who's a little embarrassing for him game one, [07:14] But he's ready to go game two. There were a couple other things that happened, though. [07:18] the Cavs bench was awful. [07:22] And I don't, so at home, whatever you're going to get, whatever you're going to get from your bench guys. But one of the things I liked about, so Merrill was one for eight, Struis was one for seven. [07:31] Tyson was one for four. [07:33] Dean Wade one for three. Wade Sardin was one for three, yeah. So combined, that's 12% for those guys. Yeah. And Merrill... [07:42] I thought it was interesting. Legler noticed it. Legler was talking about it during the game, that he was getting a little hang doggy. [07:49] And I was thinking about, [07:51] You know, the half bang from game one with Meryl. Yeah. Bah, whatever that was. [07:56] And that not going in, it felt like he carried that into this game. He's kind of like, I really thought he was becoming like a real playoff guy. Yeah. [08:04] Um, and like a guy that when he was open, you just felt like it was going in. And now that's felt like that's going sideways.

[08:11] They had to rely on Schroeder, which has been fool's gold for, what, 13 teams of the league at this point? Including this one. I mean, he hasn't been good for six straight games now. Like, just really has not made an impact. And they have to play him, and he needs to handle the ball because otherwise Donovan Mitchell and James Harden are just going to get run into the ground. So he has to be out there, unfortunately. [08:29] Yeah, the things I didn't like about this Cavs team, when you just talked about this team win three straight rounds, [08:35] Can they guard people like Maxie and people like... [08:39] Brunson, could they guard those [08:42] The smaller scoring guards Yeah [08:45] They give up a lot of threes. Usually they're open. That's just kind of who they are defensively. They're a middle-of-the-road defense team. [08:52] You saw that today, too. [08:55] And, and it just feels like the Knicks are starting to look like a bad matchup for them. The Knicks were asleep for the first three quarters of game one. [09:02] but since then have been in control of the series. And I don't, I don't know what the moves are here for the Cavs. [09:08] Which I, of course, said after game one of OKC San Antonio, and then the move was just to go big and... [09:13] and bully and grab and pull wendy's arm four quarters shockingly effective if you can get away with it yeah [09:19] I'm not sure what the moves are here. Even looking at the minutes, Allen played 28-3. [09:24] And it was a minus 20. [09:26] uh mobley played 36 they were trying at one point they had three guards with tyson and mobley and they're just trying all kinds of different things and they they can never really land on anything so what's what's the answer what do they do well i mean the big question is do you want to continue to guard josh hart like this

[09:43] Like, do you want to try this again? Or do you have to go completely back to the drawing board in terms of the coverage? I ask this, and it may seem crazy after the game that Josh Hart just had, but it's like, if they aren't guarding him this way, they don't have a lot of defensive alternatives. Like, it's really hard to contain Jalen Brunson. It's really hard to keep James Harden from getting switched into that matchup, as we saw in game one, when you don't have like a Jared Allen just kind of shadowing everything on the back line. And so they have to make a lot of hard defensive decisions. [10:13] roleplayers are shooting like this, you're going to lose. There's really not a lot you can do to adjust to that, to the point that [10:18] I mean, one of my favorite looks for the Cavs is Harden and Allen, and they put three shooters around them. Usually it's Dean Wade, Max Struess, Sam Merrill, all three of those guys. It's often like as clean and easy as Cleveland's offense will ever look. They will rack up points for little bursts of time when that group is out on the floor. But if three of those guys can't shoot, you're cooked. It kind of is that simple. Those guys are going to have to play better. They're going to have to make some kind of adjustment defensively. I actually would not [10:45] Bail on leaving Josh Hart just yet because of that desperation, because of the lack of alternatives. I think they should make him prove it one more time before they really go back to the drawing board on it. But look, they were going to be behind the eight ball in this series. The Knicks have played like a juggernaut. The Cavs have been great survivors, but it's not as if they have all of these options to toggle between. [11:04] So the heart decision. Yeah. [11:08] Atkinson, after the game, and in the interviews yesterday, was talking about he was doing some 1% thing, how hard the Brunson shots were, which I agreed with. I said that after the game. I thought the shot making was extraordinary by Brunson. There was only...

[11:22] Maybe two of those times where it really felt like Harden got cooked. But for the most part, those were really hard shots. But also, guess what? He's Jalen Brunson, and he hits a lot of really hard shots. Yeah. But – [11:32] I guess my question is, [11:34] You seem like you're overreacting to the last eight minutes of the game and underreacting to the first 40. Yeah. [11:39] And then they swing completely the other way and they're like, here's what we're going to do. We'll leave [11:43] We leave heart open. Once he starts making a couple, I'm getting rid of that strategy, especially at home. [11:49] I could see doing that in Cleveland, but [11:51] It just felt like the more comfortable he was getting, [11:55] You know, we see this sometimes with the hack-a-shack. Well, they'll start doing the hack-a-shack and then the guy will start making them. Yeah. [12:01] And he almost gets in a groove with shooting him. And then it's like, all right, stop. Like he's in a groove now. [12:05] I always thought with Hack-A-Shack, you should be doing it sporadically. You do it, you don't do it, you do it. You kind of keep the guy on the heels. [12:12] I would have tried that with almost treated this like a football game with heart. [12:16] where sometimes we leave them alone. Sometimes we don't just try to mix it up. I don't, [12:20] I just didn't love the strategy. I have not loved the coaching strategy. [12:23] in this series. Then there's the Mitchell piece too about [12:26] Is he hurt? Is he not hurt? Because in the first quarter, they're showing us replays of him, and it looks like he's dragging his leg. Then he's doing a Eurostep. What's going on with him? I think he's definitely hurt. I mean, even injured players can have athletic moments, and we've seen some of those from Donovan Mitchell. But you'll see him just absolutely chugging, working super hard just to run up the floor on some of these possessions. I don't know what it is that's ailing him, but... [12:51] He's not his explosive best all the time. He is a, like, he's a great shooter, and he's so strong, and his footwork is so good, he's just gonna, like, by force of will.

[12:59] be an impact player in a lot of these games, but I don't think he has it there all the time. And James Harden clearly doesn't have it there all the time. And this is maybe the critical flaw in the Cavs design is with both of those guys playing that way. [13:11] So much of what Jared Allen and Evan Mobley do offensively is drafting off of the attention that Donovan Mitchell and James Harden get. And that's why you saw like Evan Mobley put up 10 points in the first quarter of this game like it was nothing. Super easy. Yeah. All like with that, like playing within the flow of the game. [13:26] Four points the rest of the way because the Knicks changed their defense a little bit, overreacted a little less, made these guys earn it. [13:33] Also got out to Evan Mobley on some of his shots, too, to take away the Josh Hart style open looks they were giving him. Jared Allen is kind of a similar thing. As soon as you contain the dribble penetration, those are not two bigs who are going to force it, who are going to put up a bunch of points unless they're working the offensive glass, and that evaporated for the Cavs over the course of this game, too. [13:51] Yeah. [13:52] Alan and Moby at halftime were 23 and 10. Yep. [13:55] Um, [13:57] That did not continue. And then Harden had 12 points at halftime. [14:01] With about halfway through the fourth quarter, he still had 12 points. Yeah. And – [14:05] It was like, what... [14:06] Is he out there? [14:08] And then he had a couple late, kind of after the game was decided. [14:13] I don't know, Rob. I don't know what the move is. The Cavs have been better at home for the most part, even if they did have that Game 6 game. [14:20] stinker. I think the variable that's going to be different this time, [14:23] You're going to have Knicks fans there. [14:25] I don't know what the number is, but it's going to be more than you think. And the Knicks fans travel. They seem to be everywhere.

[14:32] Cleveland is just close enough to like four different cities. [14:36] There will be secondary market stuff. And I have a feeling there's going to be, [14:42] maybe 15-20% there. So the energy is going to be a little different than maybe a Cleveland-Detroit game. [14:48] And then we'll see. Like, [14:50] Is Mitchell healthy? Are they going to do the same thing with Struis again? [14:54] Is this just the next time? Like, it's really starting to feel that way with the Brunson in the way – [15:01] kind of flipping the gravity of that Halliburton game a year ago. Yeah. And kind of resetting that. And then you see the celebrities. What a great ticket. I didn't realize. We talked about this when I did the pod two days ago. I thought the crowd seemed pretty great. [15:16] But they also mute the microphone. So there was a lot of good fan video there. [15:20] that came out from the 24 hours after the game with some of the different shots. And like, [15:25] That crowd was delirious. And everybody who was there that I knew was like, that's the best crowd I've ever [15:30] been in a while and it just feels like that's it's now you're down to oh yeah yeah yeah yeah [15:36] You have to win game five games. [15:38] You have to either sweep the Cleveland games and win game five in New York, or you have to win five and seven in New York. And I just don't see it with this capstone. It was going to be difficult no matter what. But I wonder, you raised the point of the traveling fan base. Is this one of the new inefficiencies in the league, having... [15:54] the Eastern Conference, like regional geography on your side where you can travel, having a fan base with disposable income who's going to make the trip to Cleveland. Can we get like, does Timothee Chalamet have like a super PAC where he's just like funding buses? You know, let's get people over there. I just think there's an opportunity here for any celebrity with some money to spend to really make an actual impact on the atmosphere of these games.

[16:17] We've started seeing this in baseball in the last 15 years first. [16:21] And now it seems like it's trickling into basketball. It was certainly the case with the Celtics. Like, they would play in these... [16:26] random cities like Phoenix, New Orleans, and it would be like 5,000 Celtic fans there. You could see it with the Knicks, definitely. See it definitely with the Lakers. Oh, yeah. The teams with the generational fans seem like they can take – [16:39] 15 to 25 percent of a stadium for big games so we'll see or 80 percent if it's philly apparently yeah it's right or 80 it can be yeah that's bad [16:47] So we have the Knicks are down minus 820 on FanDuel. [16:53] The next sweep is plus 250. [16:56] It's not going to be a sweep. [16:58] The Cavs, I think they're too good for that. [17:01] You sure? [17:03] I mean, I'm sure, I feel sure that they're supporting players. They haven't lost in three weeks. They haven't. [17:08] But here's the thing. It's like in a game like this, you see the dominoes falling where Josh Hart shooting the way he does opens things up for Jalen Brunson, who then is attacking like more open coverage, spraying out to everybody. Everything is building on itself. And on the other side, [17:23] Donovan Mitchell, who isn't moving super well, is now seeing multiple defenders in front of him every possession because no one around him can hit a shot. And the bigs are like trying to do the dirty work, but ultimately aren't attracting a lot of attention. If either of those things flips, right? Josh Hart makes a few fewer shots. If any Cavs role player starts hitting shots, right? [17:41] Then you see the dynamic and the balance of this game shift pretty dramatically with it. I just think we're going to get one game where that's the case, whether it's the classic role players shoot better at home type of influence, whether it is like a one game James Harden explosion, whatever that looks like. The Cavs are a team that when their backs are against the wall have responded with some of the most impressive efforts of these playoffs. So I don't want to write them off and say we're headed quite down that darker road.

[18:05] Cavs in five or Nixon five is plus 190. And that would be my bet because I think you're right. I think there's going to be a game where the roll guys make shots. Yeah. [18:12] Even tonight, I felt, especially in the first half, I thought the Cavs were getting good shots. I liked the shots they were getting. They just weren't going in. They're getting open threes. They're getting good Mitchell shots. Mobley was doing whatever he wanted in that first six minutes. [18:25] And I liked how they played. The results... [18:28] just weren't really there. Nope. Fortunately. Um, [18:31] Mike Brown for Tibbs. [18:33] Looking pretty good. [18:34] Huge upgrade, huge adjustment. [18:37] Uh, [18:38] The bridges trade, looking all right. Towns trade, [18:41] Solid. Back to a win? Shamit signing? Pretty good. There's been some good moves here. I'm not exaggerating when I say the Landry Shamit signing might be a monumental move in retrospect for the Knicks. His ability to give them important minutes, to be a floor spacer. In game one, they go on that run because they have enough shooters to take Josh Hart off the floor. In game two, Josh Hart becomes one of those shooters, so it's not a problem, but the Knicks bench has been awesome. It's been awesome because it's been cultivated over the course of the entire year in a way that [19:11] For all being honest about it, Tibbs would never. [19:14] You're right. [19:15] There should be a basketball reference or a, [19:18] clean in the glass stat. Do I think it's going in? Mm-hmm. [19:22] And Shamit, I think I was probably like 25% [19:26] with him for most of his career. Now I think it's going in. Who else is disproportionately high on the belief versus the actual percentage?

[19:36] Well, in the Spurs-Thunder series, I just think every Vassel shot is going in now. [19:41] I think he might be 100. I don't know why. I just feel like, and Champinney's another one, even though he wasn't good in game two. I always feel like his shots are going to, but Vassell right now is in a groove where it just doesn't seem... [19:54] Like it matters if he's falling left, falling right, falling backwards, it's going in. Catches it in the air, whatever. Like he makes just like preposterous shots. I think those two guys are great. Devin Booker's another one of those guys for me who I'm always like, I feel like it's going in and then you look at the percentages and it's like mid-30s from three. It's like a beautiful jumper, but it doesn't always hit. We have Pritchard as the best Celtic for this. Hmm. [20:17] Every time he misses him, I'm shocked. Is that not just you? No, I just can't believe. I always think it's going in with him. I still haven't gotten over his corner three in the Gabe Center in Philly thing. I still can't believe that didn't go in. [20:29] All right, so let's move to Spurs Thunder, because that's probably a more interesting series for a lot of reasons. I'm going to talk about the physicality today. Sure. [20:38] So there's two kinds of physicality. [20:41] Right. I like the first kind of playoff physicality. Let the big boys, big, big boys. [20:47] The stuff that was happening in this game, and you could say from the other side, if you're an OKC fan, well, they're doing it to Shea, too. They're pulling him, grabbing him. [20:55] They debuted like almost a new way to defend Wemby yesterday. And I'm going to be really interested to see how the league reacts to it over the course of the series. This is just new territory for us. Yeah. Um, [21:05] If you're just pulling his arms and pulling him off balance all the time, if you're pushing his shoulders down,

[21:12] when he's jumping, which is all stuff Hartenstein was doing. I felt like when we got fouled 20, I don't have a dog in this race. I'm a Celtic fan. I don't really care who wins the series. [21:22] But I also really enjoy watching Wemby. And yesterday was... [21:26] I don't mind if he's getting knocked around. I thought Minnesota did a great job doing it. I thought the difference yesterday was like the pulling, the grabbing, the pushing – [21:33] Just stuff that just shouldn't be legal. And if you're going to be allowed to do all that stuff, [21:38] OKC is going to win the series in five. So how do they react to game three? So I think this conversation depends on who you're pointing the finger at. From the Thunder perspective, I think as a competitive team, if you are not seeing what you can get away with in literally every series you play that's competitive, you're not doing your job. So I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly with that. They should have done what they did in game two. I agree that it was a good strategy. And I would say it's even incumbent on Isaiah Hardenshine in particular, who is desperate to find a way to stay on the floor in this series [22:08] he can do to affect that matchup. [22:11] And the answer was everything. The answer was, I mean, yes, it was, it was, it, [22:15] You're right that some of those plays are like borderline dirty. Some of them are very physical. It's like walking a very delicate line of not just like what is legal, but what is like in good taste as a competitor sometimes. Yeah. Great teams do that. Great teams have players who do that and can understand how to like tow it and without going over too much. But the rest have to call some of it. Like this is a case where you could put together a super cut, [22:37] of 15 to 20 different Isaiah Hartenstein plays that are questionable in all sorts of ways. And some of them have to be called. Some of them were. Not enough of them. I don't even really see that as being Isaiah Hartenstein's fault. He is playing the game and playing his role in the way that

[22:51] Honestly, the Thunder kind of require him to play it. [22:55] I actually thought it was brilliant by him. [22:57] And you could see him as the game was going on and be like, oh, I guess they're going to just let me do this. He was even, he was doing something that I've always wondered why guys didn't do more as, [23:07] Pulling Wemby away... [23:09] from the basket on drives so that he basically to slow him up on the offensive rebound. [23:15] Every time it felt like he was getting some sort of advantage. I thought it. [23:18] I honestly thought it was brilliant, but I also couldn't believe the refs allowed it because it was pretty blatant. It's not like you couldn't see what he was doing. And I think if Wemby, the only thing he probably made a mistake on is he just should have had his arms up like this. Yeah. [23:31] because I think it just would have been more clear that Hartenstein was grabbing him on the, on the sides and stuff, but it was pretty effective. And I talked about this a couple of weeks ago. This is Kareem. This is his entire career. Yeah. [23:43] Guys doing this to him. Guys pushing him. Guys elbow him in the back. Guys trying to provoke him. And Kareem, I think, punched like five different guys. Broke his hand on Kent Benson's face at one point. Wemby's gotten mad once. [23:58] Um, [23:59] But my guess is... [24:01] Hartenstein will not be able to get away with this stuff in game three. I am guessing the Supercut was sent to the league. [24:07] today. Again, that's the Spurs job. It's like everyone needs to play their role in response to these things and figure out how to navigate them. I don't know that we had a player like this who's officiating is so unique. Maybe since Shaquille O'Neal, is there anyone in that time in terms of bigs that comes to mind for you?

[24:24] Yeah, Shaq. Shaq [24:26] It just wasn't fair. He could just get near the basket and he could just turn and duck. And so they started to do it. [24:33] I remember this is where it was always tough for me to evaluate Shaq as like a top 15 guy. Because on the one hand, I felt like he left stuff on the table. Mm-hmm. [24:42] And that he would always play himself into shape. And, you know, there was really only one season where you're like that. He was fucking awesome from beginning to end, which is his MVP season. On the other hand, I don't think it was fun to be Shaq eight months a year with the way he was guarded. True. And they would pull on his arms and they would pull on his shoulders. And that's why he ended up having shoulder problems. And I think with at least one of his shoulders. [25:03] Over and over again, he's exploding to go up and they're just kind of grabbing and pulling him down. [25:08] So I would say he was probably the last guy I can remember where it was a constant dialogue. And then, [25:14] Some of the stuff that Pistons did to Jordan was probably the other big example. Other than that, before that, people didn't play defense that way. And LeBron has taken a lot of hits and a lot of borderline hits over the course of his career, but it's totally different as a ball handler. I think this is where the Shaq-Wemby comparison, or Kareem, if you want to loop him in, these bigs who are off the ball, trying to establish position, trying to set screens, there's just so much space for the officials to turn their head ever so slightly and miss crucial contact, crucial fouls. [25:44] the league in general on offense are just not officiated fairly they are not given the benefit of the doubt that guards are i had wondered if wendy might be the exceptions that just because of his frame like you were saying if he puts his hands in the air just like he's so thin and he moves so much if you are someone like isaiah hartstein kind of pulling him out of the way is that enough of like a neon sign saying hey there is weird contact going here for the refs to finally pay attention to it in game two it wasn't like it just didn't draw enough attention

[26:14] The thing that I've, I just, I love watching Wemby. I really enjoy it. That's not like Chris Collinsworth. I love, I love Wemby. I love doing Harper. I love Wemby. I really enjoy watching him. And one of the things I love other than how competitive he is and being an alien landing from UFO, all that stuff. [26:34] I love that he doesn't bitch for calls. [26:36] He really does. Yeah. And he takes... [26:39] A lot of punishment, and I just think he's used to it. I think this is the way people have defended him since he was 14, and I think he's – [26:48] Probably done a mental study because I think he puts a lot of thought into everything, probably as much as any young star we've ever had. [26:55] And I think he's realized like, it's not worth it for me to be bitching all the time. [26:59] I need to be bigger than this. I need to be the most physical, imposing guy in the game, in the league. [27:05] And if I'm just constantly bitching and yapping and complaining, I'm not. [27:08] that gets compromised. So he took it. But Mitch Johnson did not seem like he was enjoying it. It seemed like he was getting madder and madder and madder. And my guess is it won't be the case in game three. Well, and they'll find ways to work around it, right? Like one of the things you can do is because of Wemby's skill set, you can move him anywhere on the floor. You could run him through actions like a guard if you want to and make Isaiah Harden shine. You have to defend him that way, which is something he's not comfortable doing. I think the other part about the not

[27:38] hit and held and pushed like [27:40] isn't one of these guys who is falling over all the time, even on his own shots, like Joel Embiid style. [27:46] I think it's become a really cool part of his game, not just because, you know, some of that just going to turn people off. But you see some of the tip dunks that he gets now off of his own misses. And you're only there to do that because you're not falling. You're not leaning. You're not trying to bait out the contact like he's moving downhill so much all the time now that he's able to clean up and get just crazy plays with a kind of geometry that we're not really used to seeing from anybody else. [28:10] Yeah, Haas and I talked about it two days ago, just like how important that game one was for him, which we all had the same conversations. [28:16] I thought SGA was great last night. I really thought he had a... [28:21] command of the flow of the game and when he should step in and and i just thought like that's that's why he won two straight mvps because the game's like yesterday [28:29] Um, [28:31] Wemby, the experience of watching Wemby, I don't remember feeling this way as a basketball fan since like those early 2013, 14, 15 Curry seasons. [28:42] range. [28:43] where it was just like, [28:44] I can't get enough of this because I've never seen it before. [28:48] And with the Wemby, like yesterday, and it feels like every game there's something different. Yesterday, it was just, he just had these crazy offensive rebound putbacks from weird angles. He must have had like five of them. [28:59] Where you're like, I don't understand how he got that. You almost wanted him to stop the game and replay it. [29:03] and tipping things from far away and, you know, being under the basket and reaching his octopus arm around. I think he probably didn't even really have that good of a game for him, but it felt like he was consistently impactful.

[29:16] And all over the place. You know, the Fox thing and then losing Harper. Yeah. [29:20] I feel bad for poor Castle with the 20 turnovers in two games, which I sincerely hope nobody hangs on him. He's not a true point guard. [29:27] He's going against... [29:30] the scariest collection of defensive guards we've probably had this century. [29:34] And, you know, he's been sloppy. There's... [29:37] A little bit of a Westbrook side with him. [29:39] - Early Westbrook, the OKC from '08 to 2014, [29:46] a little out of control, awesome one play, [29:49] Definitely a few plays were like, "Oh no, why'd you do that?" [29:54] a tendency to be involved in the biggest player, one of the biggest plays of the game, and it might be a good thing, it might be a bad thing. And Mike Westbrook is one of the 15 to 20 best players in the league. Yeah. But it's just young and figuring it out on the fly. And Fox was just so helpful for him. [30:09] for just being the adult in the room. I think it's just so much to ask for Castle to... [30:15] just kind of navigate that thunder defense. Jesus. It's tough, but in the same way that with, you know, a younger Russell Westbrook and especially a prime Russell Westbrook, like, [30:23] What Harper gives you in terms of the fearlessness of his play, I will just take every day of the week. Right. And you take that and you try to harness it and try to rein it in like, OK, don't do these particular crazy things. Or in the case of this series, he's just like mishandling the ball sometimes. Like he's trying to go so quickly and so aggressively through all of those Oklahoma City defenders that he's just kind of like losing it. [30:45] I think that's going to be the reality if both Harper and Fox can't play. They just don't have alternatives. You can throw Jordan McLaughlin out there, but it's not really going to change a lot. You need the two-ball handler approach even just to get Wemby in good advantageous positions. And so it's not an accident that the fewer ball handlers were on the floor, now it's hard to even get Wemby the ball. It's hard to get those post-entry passes to him. Everything just gets so much more complicated. But I trust that Castle will reign the turnovers in, certainly over time,

[31:15] It just can't be this terrible all the time in terms of the volume. [31:19] It's basically two a quarter. [31:21] I remember in the, I think it was the 2012 finals, I wrote a piece about Westbrook about [31:26] the concept of a 90 10 guy where the 90% is awesome. [31:30] And that 10%, everybody's got the 10% that they're not really good at. They have some flaw. [31:35] And with Westbrook, the 10% was so glaring, you always thought about it. Yeah. And Castle as a point guard, you just are kind of aware of it. [31:43] It's like, all right, his flaws, he's a little sloppy. Yeah. [31:46] And now he has the ball all the time. I'm going to be thinking about this more that he's a little sloppy because he's 21 and... [31:53] He's going against Lou Dort and Caruso and, um, [31:56] Who's the other guy they have? Case and Wallace. Case and Wallace. I forgot about him. First team, all defense, Case and Wallace. I voted for a first team who just stands at midcourt waiting to pick your pocket. [32:07] Brutal. And has done that to Castle at least once a game. Well, if Stefan Castle has a little bit of young Westbrook, is Dylan Harper the most supercharged Eric Maynor we've ever seen? Here's the game-managing responsible guy behind him. Yeah. He's alien Eric Maynor. I... [32:25] I was so bummed when he got hurt. I know. Because that was another great thing about this series. You're watching Harper in real time. [32:31] I talked about this two days ago that just like, this is the worst he's ever going to be. And he's, [32:36] doing this, I was thinking about [32:38] I really value when a young point guard can rise to this. Because even you think like some of the best point guards we've had, Tony Parker in the 2003 playoffs. Yeah.

[32:49] By the end of that playoffs, he was so shaky that they were like, should they trade him for Kidd? [32:53] Remember? It was like a whole thing. Oh, absolutely. Kids are free agents. [32:57] Do they do a sign-in trade? Would this be an upgrade to get Jason? Because Parker was a young point guard, and they didn't know if they could rely on him. Rondo was like that for the 08 Celtics. [33:06] He was good one game, not good the next game. And for Harper to be as... [33:10] consistent and also impactful on both ends. Yeah. [33:14] Pretty dumbfounding. It sounds like he's going to play tomorrow is the word that I was hearing. I hope so. I mean, even if it's in a somewhat limited state, like they could really just use everything that he brings to the table. But when you think about those three core guys, Castle is having the most normal young player in the playoffs experience because of those walls he's running into. Harper, we really haven't seen the limits on it yet. He's still so smooth. Like there was a play where before he left this game in game two, he was like, I don't [33:40] is like driving one-on-one through Lou Dort, just like one diagonal step at a time. And Lou Dort is just constantly backpedaling. And Dylan Harper, who again is 20 years old, just body bumps Lou Dort, a living fire hydrant, out of the way for a basically uncontested layup. It's like, nothing about that is normal. Nothing about Wemby's arc and his like first playoff foray is normal. Stefan Castle is looking mortal by comparison, but it's still awesome. And so if- You just have to feel, we've said it so many times, but like the fact that the future of the franchise [34:10] those three guys in particular, it's just about as safe a bet as you could possibly make and as encouraging a sign in this first run as you could possibly get. [34:19] I think they should win this series, and I still think they're going to win this series. But we'll see with Harper. If Harper's compromised, then that's going to change the equation. Fox, the high ankle sprain.

[34:29] I never know what to believe with these anymore. Sometimes high ankle sprain is just like you're done for four weeks. And then other times it's like he can play. [34:37] It would seem as a point guard, that would be not a great position to have a high ankle sprain. Especially against the Thunder, again. Like, there's defenses you don't want to go against with any limitation. And you might have to, like, if you're Harper or Fox, but it's not ideal. [34:50] They're going to be home for game three. [34:53] My guess is Fox is going to be a game time decision in play. I don't know this for a fact, but it's a home game. They're probably hoping they can split the first two games. [35:02] in OKC and come back and then actually... [35:05] Unleash Fox and I don't know I just feel like [35:09] The J-Dub situation on the other side. Yeah. [35:12] Which... [35:14] He really looked good in game one. And I tweeted this, that... [35:18] I thought game one, there were casualties from... [35:21] playing 58 minutes at the pace that everybody played at. You knew something bad was going to happen in game two. We had two injuries, right? I think Mitchell might have gotten it right, too. Yeah, that looked a little shaky, too. Yeah, something. [35:32] Um, [35:33] But J-Dub now seems out. [35:35] I guess he's going to be out for a while. [35:37] You could feel it with some of the lineups. They basically have to go... [35:40] They can do the two bigs with some guards. [35:44] Maybe Aaron Wiggins plays a little more. I don't know. What do you do? How do you replace the minutes? Well, this is where if the officiating changes around Isaiah Hartenstein and J-Dub isn't available to play, you're starting to see that cascading effect become a real problem. Because then literally who guards Wimby? Who are you throwing at him? We saw a little more of Chet on Wimby in game two. But he did okay. But he's not your first choice. If J-Dub can't play and Isaiah Hartenstein gets in, let's say, foul trouble because of

[36:14] like, [36:14] 28 J will minutes or like 40 Alex Caruso minutes. Like it's one of those two guys is going to have to stretch really far in that matchup. And I don't know that either of them is fully ready for it. They both, you know, have things they can bring and try to make Wemby's life hard in particular, and also can contribute on offense. But yeah, [36:32] All of the matchups get very strange very quickly if J-Dub isn't out there. He really is the critical piece that makes a lot of this make sense for OKC. [36:39] I actually like J. Will in this series. He's really good. Yeah, I like his top of the... It's a little Luke Garza-ish. That little top of the key three. He's getting some Garza flashbacks. Okay. J. Will cannot be experienced. He must be of a young Garza. Everything cannot be through the lens of Luke and Garza. That can't be what we're doing. It's a little Garza-ish. No, but one of the things I like about him is... [37:01] He'll mix it up. Yeah. [37:03] He got in a fight with Champagny's brother in the Washington game during the weekend. I don't know if the other Champagny's holding me against him, but he'll mix it up. Is Justin showing up in the same way that the Thompson twins were showing up for each other? In the Morrises? Yeah. I mean, you got to come to your brother's playoff game. I would think it's a requirement. [37:22] I thought for sure game two was going to have some sort of altercation. And I had like a Mad Libs of... [37:28] I had Wemby, [37:30] Um, [37:31] Castle. [37:32] Dort, and Jalen Williams. Some combination of the four of them, and maybe even some Kelly Olenek, if he had gotten some minutes. But I still feel like this series hasn't gotten chippy enough. It's been physical, but it hasn't been...

[37:47] We haven't gotten aggro yet. I think it could be Friday night. Friday night, little Spurs crowd having some spirits before the game. Yeah. A frisky crowd, mad about the officiating game too. I think there's going to be a vibe in that game. As they should be and as there should be. I'm looking at the FanDuel odds now and I'm seeing minus 500 for a Bismack-Biombo forearm shiver to some Thunder player. Would you take that one or what do you think the alternative is? I would love to see Bismack come in for two seconds. Olenek has... [38:15] I think you could find a two-minute video of him doing stuff in different playoff games. Most famously, when he accidentally knocked Kevin Love's shoulder out of his socket. Yeah. [38:26] Again, a lot of borderline physicality going on in the playoffs. I don't know how the lines of what is an accident can really be blurred pretty clearly. [38:35] What do you think is going to happen in this series? [38:37] It is so injury dependent. I think if J-Dub is not able to play... [38:43] God, it really depends on how many ball handlers the Spurs have, too. I am inclined to say if J-Dev doesn't play, the Spurs have the upper hand in it. They've now taken a little bit of a tilt in their favor. And I say that just because J-Dev is so important and because... [38:59] We saw Shea read everything so perfectly, both in terms of spraying out to other players, but also picking his spots on offense. That just gets so much harder when the Spurs have a chance to game plan for the reality that JW isn't out there. And so you're going to have to rely a lot more on Alex Caruso being a real offensive player and a scoring threat all the time, which...

[39:18] Certainly was the case in game one, but isn't all the time. By the way, hasn't been consistently reliable throughout the course of his career. Even the playoffs last year, he's a little Josh Hardish, hit or miss. There's games when he just, they're not going in. Makes plays happen, but game one was literally like one of the best role player performances I've ever seen in my life. So that cannot be the expectation for who he's going to be. Also, AJ Mitchell's kind of figuring out his way into the series. If, as we alluded to, he's even healthy enough to go. So... [39:45] The next guys up for OKC after Shea without J-Dub I think are really difficult. And that's in part because this is not a Chet offensive series. This is not a matchup he can be a dominant scorer in by basically any way. So he might have a game where he has 18, but it doesn't feel like 18 because he's not forcing the issue. He's not pushing. He's not attacking. It's just kind of like circumstantial baskets for him, I think. The series odds shifted. They were dead even a day ago. Now it's OKC minus 162. So I don't know if that means... [40:15] There's inside info. J. Will comes back. Awesome series, though. I mean, yesterday, other than how well SGA played, [40:23] It wasn't like the prettiest basketball game, but it was dramatic and riveting. And I thought if you're San Antonio... [40:30] I didn't feel like I played well. [40:32] And I lost Harper midway through the game and I was still hanging around, hanging around. Yeah. [40:36] down two with like what, three, four minutes left? [40:39] And I really had to make OKC make some plays. And I thought SGA... [40:44] really did some good stuff. And more importantly, OKC has really now settled into...

[40:49] the role as America's villain. I think they've embraced it. I think their fans, it's us against them for the fans. [40:57] This happened to the Patriots with me. You have to buy in officially. And once you officially buy in, it's great. [41:03] You're just like, everyone's against us. [41:05] You're just, your middle fingers are out at all times. You're constantly. [41:10] taking everything personally. It's a great place to be. They should savor this and enjoy it. So if the Thunder are, to borrow your framing, a little Patriots-ish, does that endear them to you at all? Does their villainy make them a more appealing team to you? I just... [41:24] I don't like the flapping. [41:26] I just am not a fan. I don't like it. [41:29] I don't like when guys on other teams do it. I almost feel like the Thunder are the best at it. There's theories that they practice it. [41:37] There's every game, there's 10 videos afterwards. [41:41] of different things that come out of it. But part of the thing for me is I don't necessarily think they have to play that way. They're so talented. So I don't, [41:49] really fully understand it, why they bought into that [41:52] style. It obviously works for them, but I just... [41:55] I don't like it. I mean, there's the two conversations of like, how good are they? And clearly they're amazing. They're a championship team. They play to that standard literally every night. And then there's the how much do you enjoy watching them? And that really comes down to... [42:08] how much appetite you have for ignoring some of that stuff. I think if you just pile up the 15% of most annoying behavior of basically any team... [42:18] Every team's got some stuff going on that really gets under your skin, whether it's complaining to the officials, whether it's the shot selection, whether it is the flopping. It's just a matter of taste. And for me...

[42:30] I'm willing to overlook a lot of it because I really do like watching all the other stuff that the Thunder do at just like an A-plus level. So, that part is a payoff for me, but [42:41] You can't just write off somebody's experience if they say, [42:44] oh, this is a bad watch. This is annoying to watch. This is not what I like to spend time doing. You know, when I'm clocking out for my day and now I gotta, like, grind through Thunder Tape because it feels like they're at the free throw line all the time, I get why that would be a chore, but they're also fucking good. [42:59] It's not quite as bad as Luca complaining after every single call. Like to me, that's a 10 out of 10. I just hate that probably the most. [43:07] Not everything could be a foul on you. No. But fortunately, we didn't have to worry about him for that long. Some mailbag questions. Okay. [43:14] This is from Kevin. [43:15] I'm writing this the day after Wemby's 41-24 against OKC. [43:20] If it came out that Wemby actually was an alien, [43:22] that he was legitimately not human at all. [43:26] And we knew... [43:27] where to find more Wembeys like him out there, would that affect your interest level in the NBA? [43:33] I think it would for me if we had non-humans. But my point with that question is somebody – [43:40] was convinced that it might be an alien and crafted that and sent it in. [43:44] That part is believable to me. The part that sent me over the top was that, oh, we can ascertain where he came from and find, you know, like, go to the Avatar planet and pull more Wembees down here in a play. [43:57] Would it affect our interest in the league? [44:00] I mean, I think if there's a literal alien involved, how does that not affect your interest in the lake? How does that not make it more interesting, whatever is happening? It would lead to amazing halftime shows and morning shows and think pieces.

[44:13] Thank you. [44:13] Have humans lost control of the NBA? That's coming up next. I mean, it's hard to be America first when you can't even be Earth first. You know, like just the talking heads would have a field day. [44:24] Mike from St. Louis asks, is the Spurs backcourt of Castle and Harper a [44:28] the most exciting young backcourt since the Splash Brothers. What other young guard tandems got you hot and bothered like these guys? They're already the second and third best players in their team and they're 20 and 21 and then the Western finals. Really good question. Splash Brothers is a great example. [44:44] That started to happen 2013 range. Curry was a little older though. He was in his mid 20s at that point. He'd been in college for three years. [44:50] I was trying to think. I thought more people would come to mind. And it was really tough to think of two young guards in the same backcourt. [44:58] that were this fun to watch. [45:01] The closest I could come was the Derrick Rose, Ben Gordon backcourt that the Bulls had for a split second in 2009. Remember that? Sure. When Rose was a rookie, Gordon had that great playoff series against Boston and felt like he was the next Andrew Toney. [45:16] And it was like, wow, what a backcourt. Ten more years. And then Gordon left the next year and went to Detroit and it was gone. But it's pretty rare to have two young guards like this. Usually it's two guards who can't play together, like a Jaden Ivey and a Cade and things like that. Or a Steph and a Monte Ellis. It's like you got to pick one at a certain point. The other guy is jettisoned into the next version of your team. I mean, even if you expand it into veteran groups, like this is so unique because these guys are so good and so young.

[45:43] But it's not as if there are just great guard-guard combinations of any age that are this interesting. For me personally, Stephon Castle and Dylan Harper are among my maybe top 10 to 15 most watchable players in the sport, period. I agree. And so I am dialed in on every Spurs game I can get my hands on. Especially a run like this has been so fun to watch when they're out there together or apart. I think it's really hard to compete with that. The only other young tandem I can think of in the league right now is, I mean, we do love LaMelo and Khan together. [46:13] sure. [46:14] But it's nowhere near. I feel like Conzo forward too, don't you? I mean, it's like him, Brandon Miller. It's all kind of a little fluid out there. [46:25] But when you're talking guards, like Chris Paul and Booker had that nice little Phoenix run. Sure. That was really fun. [46:31] If you go back to the 70s and 80s, [46:34] The best one was the Dennis Johnson, Gus Williams one that made the finals in two straight years. Those guys are both young. They're both in their mid-20s. So we've had something like that. Or young Parker and Ginobili might be a good comp if you want to reach back a little bit. Both those guys were much wilder than these two. It was like two Steph Castles out there a lot of the time, but that can be fun too. [46:55] Nash and Finley was fun for a little bit there. Of course. Yeah, there's been some good ones. This is from Jeffrey. [47:01] He listened to my Borat Rewatchables podcast. [47:04] And then the breakdown of game one of OKC. [47:08] And Borat in that movie talks about having a romance explosion. [47:12] And he wants to know what the current romantic explosion team is, the guys you would construct around your personal enjoyment. What would be the best?

[47:20] You just mentioned two of your favorite players. Yep. [47:23] So if you put a team... [47:24] That would actually make sense together of five guys. [47:27] That would be your romance explosion team. What would it be? Oh my God. I can start as you think of it. Please. [47:34] I have Joker, Wemby, and Steph as three of the five, and then I'm just going to work around them. [47:39] So those are my three favorite players to watch anyway? Yep. [47:42] And I was thinking, healthy Halliburton. [47:45] I assume we're having a mouthfeel next year. [47:47] And I get Stefan Halliburton, who can both play with or without the ball, and they can both cut. [47:52] Joker, Wemby. [47:53] Who's my fifth in this scenario? Who's a shooter? [47:56] That's fun to watch and play with. I almost just wanted to put Aaron Gordon in there because I put him in the dunker spot. I do love that. Some corner threes. And then he could just set picks and, [48:06] do stuff. Um, [48:07] That was probably... [48:09] That was probably, I have four. [48:12] I couldn't get there with the fifth. Are you trying to win or are you just trying to have a romantic explosion? [48:19] Just like I love watching all these guys. I can't believe they're all playing together. I'm having a great time. Yes. [48:25] I think the, the, like, [48:27] collision of all that talent is kind of hard to write like in particular the steph yokich wimby part i i love i love watching yokich i love watching him dissect the game but like steph and wimby are the important elements of that for me personally and so like i would start with those two i wouldn't like [48:44] really kinetic players between them. I like Jalen Johnson types, like super fluid players. [48:50] can do a little bit of everything, but aren't being overtaxed in the way that the Hawks overtaxed him over the course of this year. But I feel like we need some defense, do we not? I like watching chaotic defense. Aaron Gordon's a great one. I think I almost might put Giannis in this group. I really like watching him. Giannis, he's alive. Giannis is alive. He's back. He's healthy. He's theoretically out of Milwaukee. I don't know where we are in this scenario. But Giannis of like, I don't have to be the superstar. I'm playing with these other guys,

[49:20] defensive player in the world and also an aggressive open court weapon at all times. That's a guy I want part of this formula. I'm going to give you my young guy romance explosion team. Okay. [49:30] Maxie, Harper, Khan, Flagg, Klingen. [49:35] Let's go. Do you need a towel off? [49:38] I got Klingon protecting the rim. I got Khan spreading the floor. I got Maxie and Harper going up and down, and I got Flagg over here just doing Flagg things. I'd have a great time. I say this with all due respect. There has to be a better guy than Donovan Klingon for this team. [49:53] There has to be a better option. [49:54] I just needed somebody who could play defense. I mean, is Chet off the board? Are we so down on Chet we're just throwing him out? [50:02] Chet would be pretty good. You're right. Chet's probably in there. I don't know. I'm having a tough moment with Chet. [50:08] I mean, here's the thing. If you want pure watchability, just like enjoyment watching that guy work, give me Moussa Diabate out there. Like the fights per 36 are going through the roof. The crazy rebounding, the like he will make one pass and take one shot every game that is objectively insane. [50:25] But I'm... [50:27] Along the ride for all of that. [50:29] Tyler sent a Giannis email actually Tyler J. [50:33] So there was a rumor today about the Heat offering Hero... [50:38] where the 13th pick and two future firsts for Giannis. I forget who reported that. Gary Werfel? [50:45] I think that Jerry Werfel, I think that's of us. [50:49] Tyler says in past off seasons, I'd scoff at that.

[50:52] But isn't that pretty decent value with the new lottery rules, especially with Giannis' injury history? [50:57] Couldn't they last? Couldn't the Heat be in the 4-10 range? [51:01] I feel like firsts are a little more valuable now. [51:04] Honestly, I felt the same way. I thought that was a lot. [51:08] You know, Giannis... [51:10] So you have two really good years left, three. I've done a million podcast segments about this, I feel like, but... [51:16] I don't know who else is desperate enough to trade for him. It feels like the Heat is the only team. The Wolves, maybe? [51:22] Maybe, but I don't... I'm not getting... [51:25] the same kind of picks from the Wolves because they've already traded all their picks. It would have to be a third team involved for sure. McDaniels kind of has to be in that trade. And then that changes the calculus of why the T-Wolves would do that. Yeah. [51:37] I don't know. I don't know if the, I don't know if the bucks are doing better than that. That's one of those where I'd kind of be like, [51:42] Do you want to call this in? Can I get a swap and we're good? Can I get a 2031 swap? Let's call it in. [51:49] At some point, we need to do the full indexing of the complete range of offers that we have contemplated for Giannis over the course of this entire saga. Because at the beginning, the idea... Yeah, this is a reject. Oh my god. Hero wear and a couple of firsts for Giannis Antetokounmpo was just like... Hawkes. Hawkes too. Absolutely. But it would have been a non-start. Like that's maybe in the pile, like we're putting it in the roundup of deals for, you know, for the blog posts. [52:13] But is anyone really taking that offer seriously? I think a couple of things have changed. For one, just literally everything happening in Milwaukee, but also the relative value of those firsts. In this new era with the change lottery odds, it shifts the calculus a little bit around teams like Miami in particular, as far as how bad they could possibly be. They don't need to be fully bottoming out anymore for those picks to really be worth something.

[52:37] I think Giannis wants to go to Boston, and I'm not sure Boston wants Giannis. And I think that's the push and pull right now. [52:43] What makes you think he wants to go to Boston? [52:46] I just think he does. [52:50] Aggregate it? [52:51] Thank you. [52:52] I don't care. [52:55] There's your social clip. There's your aggregated blog post. Let's just run with it. I think he wants to stay in the East and... [53:02] Um, I think a certain guy in the Celtics has the same shooting coach as him. Hmm. [53:06] And I think there's a lot of respect for the organization, and I just think that would be a team he would be interested in. But I also think Miami is another team he'd want to go to. [53:16] And, [53:17] By the way, the league's more fun if he goes to Miami. [53:20] The league's more fun if Jalen and Jason stay together next year. Sure. [53:24] Giannis goes to Miami with Bam and they just kind of figure it out. Heat culture style and just just salvage random guys from around the league like the Davion Mitchell types. And all of a sudden they're scary. Plus with like the Pacers coming back, the Hawks a little bit better. Maybe the Pistons find a way to add a piece or two. These could be a really deep conference next year, especially if Giannis goes somewhere that's actually kind of relevant. [53:48] Don't forget House's Wizards. Of course. The Resurgent Wizards. The Trey and AD high pick and roll with DeBansa spreading out on the side. I genuinely can't wait, but I don't know if that says more about them or me. Tony Candelora. [54:02] wants to know when we look back in this era of the NBA, [54:05] Will the Thunder end up being to the Wemby Spurs with the bad boy Pistons were to the Jordan Bulls? Hmm.

[54:11] The Bulls had to mentally and physically overcome [54:14] that big hurdle. The Spurs might have to do the same. The Pistons won back-to-back titles. Could this be history repeating itself? I hadn't thought of that, but I thought that was pretty interesting. The problem is in this scenario... [54:26] I guess you, so the Spurs would have to be the 1990 Bulls in this scenario. Yes. [54:31] which means they would [54:33] Yeah, that's a pretty good one. I mean, it's realistic. I just think the difference is the Pistons were kind of on their last legs after the second title. [54:41] Whereas OKC is young and has a big future ahead of them. Well, narratively, I mean, you have the team that's kind of like testing him with physicality in the way that the Pistons did. Yeah. You have Wemby potentially having to overcome both that and them just competitively over the course of his first couple years in the league. Not only, though, does it feel different just because the Pistons were so much further along in age and experience than the Thunder are, but it would be like if that Pistons team were in place and they were a test for Jordan as they were, but they also just had like, [55:10] this other trove of young talented picks that was also in the pipeline so that they could be a totally different but equally competitive version of the pistons for the next like eight years like the sustainability of the thunder is the unique element and so every other contender falls apart within like a pretty concentrated window [55:28] I think we have a lot of reason to believe that the Thunder will not do that. They'll have to change. They're going to have to draw a line somewhere. They might have to trade J-Dub at some point. Loth is there to do it. But they just have so much to work with in a way that even the Pistons of that time did not.

[55:41] Yeah, the funny thing about this conversation is OKC might win nine of the next 10 titles and we'll be like, remember that? [55:47] 2026 and we thought that they were going to be a stopgap champ for this first and now they're challenging bill russell [55:54] One more Giannis thing from Victor. He mentioned... [55:57] Basically asking if Giannis goes to Miami, the zombie heat, [56:03] Does he turn into a zombie Greek freak? [56:06] And does that get scary? No. [56:08] If he goes to Miami, does he now become zombie honest and get the heat juice poured on him? And now it's 2021 again, basically. Is that how it works? They just pour heat juice on people? Yeah, they pour heat juice on people. I mean, the logic of the zombie says like as long as he gets bitten by somebody down there, as long as like a piece of a brain is eaten, then he becomes zombie honest. But what does zombie honest even mean? [56:31] I don't know. It's like a Game of Thrones White Walker thing. I don't want any part of that. [56:37] Ethan wants to know, he's a big Knicks fan, [56:41] If the Knicks won the championship with Brunson as their best player, considering all the discourse about how you can't win a championship with Brunson as a small guard as your best player, [56:50] Um, [56:51] What are other sports equivalents of that? And he mentions, this is an NFL thing, not your total forte, but if Lamar Jackson won the championship, [56:59] And there's this whole narrative about [57:01] You can't win with a quarterback who runs and moves around as much as Lamar. [57:07] I don't think the Knicks are going to win the championship this year, but I think if they did...

[57:12] It would be a reckoning for a lot of things we thought about the type of teams that could win a title. Definitely. [57:19] not building a team through the lottery. [57:21] Um, yeah. [57:23] Pinning your hopes on a guy who, after four seasons, was averaging 11 points a game career. [57:29] And I think he got, what, like $104 million for four years? And it was like a polarizing contract, remember? Some people are like, whoa, that's... [57:37] Jalen Brunson, that's way too much. Where were you on that? I was... [57:40] I was more bullish on it. I think if you were, I didn't think he'd be this, but I was like, no, How else are you going to get, I thought he was a proven playoff guy at least. Absolutely. I think if you were watching that Dallas team, even before like the breakout against the jazz that he had in that playoffs, all of the signs were there that he was a good, at least like plus starting level point guard. I thought maybe he would be the kind of guy who like makes some all-star teams. Maybe he has like a Kemba Walker kind of career. This has been a totally different thing. This makes no sense. It's up there with Kawhi is really the only other example. [58:10] somebody's first four years [58:12] Not remotely looking like their next four years. Right. And it's just like a double leap. And he's so good at all the things that small guards are not supposed to be good at. Like for as much as people wring their hands around that idea, he gets in the lane and finishes and maneuvers around people. [58:27] in a way that we very rarely see and maybe have never seen from anybody else so i like this idea though of kind of like puncturing the common logic around what a champion can look like and i think you're right about the construction of the knicks not only did they not build through the draft they didn't really build their free agency either like all of these guys they got by trade and so yeah even randall was a free agent signing who then they turned into town somehow

[58:50] And on the other side of this, I mean, we're just coming off of a year where a really young team Thunder, a really young Thunder team won the title. [58:56] And if the Spurs manage to get out of the series, maybe even a younger Spurs team manages to win the title. So the conventional wisdom that you have to have experience, you have to have all these things, gets thrown out the window. I don't know what the requirements would be anymore other than you need the superstars. And clearly in this era, you need a lot of depth just to survive this sort of run. [59:13] Jordan Mullaney in LA wants to know if Wemby could pull a Jerry West in the Western Conference finals where OKC wins the series, but Wemby wins Western Conference MVP. [59:24] Hadn't thought of that. I'm on the record. I always think... [59:27] It should come from a winning team. [59:29] I don't know how you're the MVP of a team that lost. [59:32] But this could be a really good test case if Wemby finishes – [59:36] 27, 17 and four blocks a game or whatever. And his plus minus is crazy out of whack and they lose in seven by three points. [59:45] But I personally think it should be a winning team. [59:48] If he has three more games that look like game one, [59:51] I think he probably should win. And that's even if Shea looks amazing, right? It's even if... So you would vote for it? [59:58] I mean, you have to see it in context. You have to understand what's happening. It's not just about the numbers, but how much you are shaping and impacting the game. [1:00:06] I don't think anybody affected game one in the way that Victor Webinama affected game one. And they could lose the series and that could still be the case, especially if they're down all these other guys and they don't have the ball handling and they just kind of fall apart. But he is the one constant. I don't see a reason you can't vote for that.

[1:00:22] I think the one thing that's definitely happened [1:00:26] He's the best player in the league, though. I don't think that's arguable anymore. The impact that he has on watching him go up a level in the playoffs, I just think... [1:00:34] I think this is kind of a wrap as great as SGA is. It's just, [1:00:37] What we're watching from web is. We haven't seen it. John K. wanted to know, [1:00:42] Is Wemby the greatest threat we've seen to challenge Bill Russell's crown for most NBA championships? [1:00:48] which is 11. I don't think that's happening. [1:00:50] I don't think it's happening, A, and B, we've been here before with like... [1:00:54] Honestly, Shaq and Kobe felt like they were going to win every title in the 2000s, right? When Wade and LeBron and Bosh all got together. Not one, not two. Yeah, like seven, eight seemed realistic. So we've been in this spot a few times. I don't. [1:01:09] I would say winning 11. The difference here is if he's 22 and his best teammates are 21 and 20, [1:01:15] the kind of runway they're going to have skipping all the steps of like, [1:01:18] Jordan didn't win a title till year eight. Yeah. [1:01:22] Wemby might win a title in year three for all we know. I feel like it's much more likely that we look up 10 years from now and Wemby and the Spurs won four and Shea and the Thunder won three. And it was just kind of like a back and forth between them for supremacy during this time. But Celtics-Lakers in the 80s. So Lakers won five, Celtics won three. It easily could have been five, three the other way. [1:01:44] Last one from Brian from Philly. [1:01:47] He said, uh, [1:01:49] This is one of those series, everybody seems to agree, whoever wins the West will win the title.

[1:01:54] He wants to know, [1:01:55] How many other times has that happened where the finals, where the series before the finals felt like the finals? [1:02:02] So I went through this. [1:02:04] Warriors Rockets 2018. Yes. [1:02:07] Sunspurs 2007. [1:02:11] the Robert Horry shoving Nash into the, [1:02:14] into the thing it felt it felt like whoever won that series is going to win the title and the caps are waiting um [1:02:20] Lakers-Kings 2002, I think, was a good one. The Nets were in the finals that year. Either team has been them. I mean, couldn't all three of those, like all of the championships in the Lakers three-peat, [1:02:30] probably would qualify at some point with some series they played or another in the West. Yeah, the problem is in 2001, they killed everybody. So I don't even think we thought they were just destroying. That was the second best team in the century. Lakers Blazers in 2000 was the other one. Yeah. [1:02:46] That felt like, and Indiana, I thought was a good team that year. I actually, and that series is a lot closer than I think it gets credit for now. If you go back and you watch game four and game six, it's a really, really good series. [1:02:58] But I think those were... [1:03:00] Those were the four. Oh, and then... [1:03:02] This is from BS, weirdly. [1:03:05] Um, yeah, [1:03:06] wants to know why the Knicks keep rolling out all these ex-players that also have all this baggage from Knicks past whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. Marbury, Starks, Ewing... [1:03:16] et cetera, et cetera. Larry Johnson, Sprewell, [1:03:20] It's like the ghost of Nick's past, not in a good way, but the MSG has come to accept them.

[1:03:26] Are you pro? Are you con? Where are you in this? I think we should honor our history. I think if, you know, not how I feel as well. Like, what's the problem? Certainly with honoring those like Patrick Ewing wants to come watch the game. You're going to turn your nose up at Patrick Ewing. And I'm here for the Big Ten. I loved the ceremony they had earlier this season where they brought out like 60 guys like Ron Baker. [1:03:44] Come celebrate with Knicks legends. I think once a Knick, always a Knick is a genuinely cool thing in a league that feels so transactional and so mercenary sometimes. Let's care about playing in a place and let's care about players and athletes that have relationships to a city and to a fan base. I don't think any of us need to be too cynical for that. [1:04:04] Rob Mahoney, I completely agree. I kind of like, it's a little weird. It took a while to get used to it, but I like it. Because I think that's [1:04:11] When you're a franchise that has generations, I think you should embrace the generations. And they've done a good job of... [1:04:17] kind of the celebrities of the people that have been coming for a while get priority for the seats [1:04:22] I saw Fat Joe is courtside today. [1:04:25] Yeah. But then all the other Knicks guys from the 90s and 2000s, I don't know. I kind of like it. [1:04:31] I do like it. I always liked when the Celtics, even in the 80s and 90s, when they would bring the guys from... [1:04:36] Anytime a guy from the 60s or 70s was in the house, it was like, oh, no. [1:04:40] Oh my god! [1:04:42] Don Nelson, wow. It is fun. If you're the Knicks, it's just every game. My one note, [1:04:49] I don't know when Patrick Ewing entered his, like, newsboy cap era, but I do have mixed feelings about that. And maybe it just comes for all of us. Feels like he's...

[1:04:58] I don't know, tinkering with stuff. Yeah. Maybe new stylists. Him, John Travolta. It's a weird year for berets and alternative hats. [1:05:07] Travolta might have ended the beret. You think so? Yeah, I think he killed the beret a couple nights ago. So you're doing Euphoria. You're doing it with Joanne on the Prestige TV pod. I am, in fact. How many episodes left? Two episodes left. And we're actually going to be going live to YouTube for both of those episodes. So come hang out with us on Sunday nights. What's it, Ringer TV? It's the YouTube channel? Ringer TV. If you're not dialed in on the NBA that night, come watch Euphoria with us. [1:05:33] My daughter was on my pod the other day and said the season seems to be revolving around Sydney Sweeney and her boobs, and she's hoping that they will... [1:05:41] gravitate away from that in the final two episodes was her review. I don't know how locked in you've been, Bill, but they literally destroyed a skyscraper. Oh, I've been watching it. Yeah, they did a Godzilla with her boobs. Just wanted to make sure, you know, when that happened, I sent you like an urgent slack alert just to make sure it was on your desk, but I'm glad you're there. [1:05:59] By the way, I haven't been to Slack in eight years. Maybe that's why. [1:06:02] Yeah, I'm always available on text, though, for you, Rob Boney. I appreciate that. All right. Ringer MBA, Prestige TV. [1:06:08] And, uh, [1:06:09] I don't know when I'm going to see you again. There'll be some sort of live thing we'll have to do during the series. Cause I think, [1:06:14] Spurs Thunder will go at least six. I certainly hope so. Yeah. Hopefully there's enough like live bodies by the end of this series. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Rob Boney. We're going to take a break. Come back with a [1:06:25] Mally Rubin and old friend Jason Concepcion next.

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[1:08:00] slash Simmons. That's me. [1:08:02] That's linkedin.com slash Simmons. Terms and conditions apply. [1:08:08] Survivor 50, three-hour finale last night. Jason Concepcion is here. Matley Rubin is here. You might remember them once upon a time, back in the 1900s, when we had a little podcast called Binge Mode. [1:08:20] about a show called Game of Thrones. [1:08:22] Way, way back when. But here's what's uniting us right now. We all love Survivor. I had a big comeback this year. You guys have been in from the ground for... [1:08:30] And it was an action-packed season finale. Where do you want to start, Jason? [1:08:35] Oh, gosh. I'll start with the winner, because I thought Aubrey... [1:08:40] Deserving winner. Absolutely deserving winner. [1:08:44] I've, [1:08:45] I've never necessarily gravitated to her game. Uh, [1:08:50] I thought, [1:08:51] The season where she came very close to winning, but Michelle won, Kao Rong, I could see she played really well down the stretch, but I think that the criticism that her social game was not necessarily as on point. [1:09:05] that needed to be to win that game is correct. And ultimately, the fact that she was able to get [1:09:13] to [1:09:14] To get to the position to win the last immunity necklace without... [1:09:20] Jonathan... [1:09:22] Joe or Rizzo realizing that she's the biggest threat to win the game. [1:09:26] Yeah. Is... [1:09:28] Proof positive that she deserves to win and that she altered her game enough to win under very challenging circumstances. I mean, it seems like a $2 million mistake.

[1:09:42] to choose to boot Tiffany over Aubrey, certainly for Joe. [1:09:48] But shouts to Aubrey. Just a real... [1:09:52] a great great run she played it in that kind of new era way where she stayed in the middle stayed in the cut [1:10:00] And then... [1:10:01] flowered late to kind of take the reins and, and again, still managed to stay in, [1:10:08] Off of people's radar, just a wonderful performance. I have to hand it to her. [1:10:12] Mal? Yes. Yeah, I really agree. And I think like season 50, first of all, what a treat to be here with you both today to talk about this genuinely really memorable finale. And season 50 was supposed to be a lot of things, right? Not a lot of shows go for 50 seasons and 25 years. And one of the things that it was supposed to be, and I think when the initial cast list came out and there was this wide swath of players from the middle seasons missing, it was like, isn't this supposed to be a celebration of the eras? And it ended up being that in a lot of satisfying and [1:10:42] ways. And I think because of that core intention and the level of just adoration that every member of the cast brings to Survivor, like, well, maybe we'll talk at some point about the celebrity twists across the season, which worked, which didn't. The true celebrity at the heart of Survivor, I've said this before, is Survivor. And so a player like Aubrey was always going to win this season, I think. A player who has the deep-seated trauma from injustices of Survivor's

[1:11:12] articulate that at Final Tribal, a player like Sari, God tier, was never going to get to the end. There are very few other members of the cast who would have actually taken her and followed through on that pledge. I think Ozzy might have. Probably nobody else would have, right? And a player like Joe was never going to get the votes. I actually think Rizzo is like a great player, and I hope we get to talk about him, but he was also never going to get the votes because the other players have never watched him play. They don't understand what his survivor history [1:11:42] Always was a leader in the clubhouse for like most likely to win the season. And I think she really played well. The underdog story almost always hits at final tribal and she was able to back it up with like actual savvy gameplay and a real narrative. So I think she's a worthy winner as well. [1:11:59] Thank you. [1:11:59] Is it time for me to have a zag? [1:12:01] Do it. Please, Zag. Please, Zag. This is why I stopped watching the show. Oh, come on. Honestly, this is why I stopped like 20 seasons in. I just had it with how they systematically get rid of all the most interesting, most talented, best looking people during the course of the show. And what do we end up with? Oh, the middle. This is the new strategy. Oh, you mean the people that were smart enough to realize this person's a bigger threat. Let's [1:12:31] Thank you. [1:12:32] This, I just, I thought she was so unimpressive. And the only reason she won was because [redacted address] more captivating and way more of a threat. And she just kind of waited until the end. It was like watching a cockroach.

[1:12:46] Okay. [1:12:47] Go. Yeah, please. You first. I want to agree and disagree. Jason, I know we feel the same way about this because one of the things that like got me through COVID was us texting about Jesse during Jesse. This has been a real problem in the new era where like, I think genuinely it is difficult, if not impossible for the best player in the season to win. And this is something that Jason and I have like agonized over for years. Jesse was one of the players I was shocked not to see in the season 50 cast. He was easily one of the most dominant players in recent memory. And the [1:13:17] to win but not make it to the point where he could have tried to win was I think and I know Jason you agree an indictment of the structure of the game so broadly Bill I think your critique of like can the best player win is valid inside of this phase of Survivor a show that I love and like basically can't live without that said [1:13:36] I don't think that's the case for Aubrey. I don't actually think Aubrey is a player who falls into that mold. I don't think that Aubrey is one of these. What mold does she fall into? Not charismatic. Doesn't win challenges. Nobody really trusted her. And everybody kept her around because they all were stupid enough to think if she got to the end, they were going to beat her. That was the only reason she won. [1:13:55] I'll say this. I think it is very telling that over four years, [1:14:00] appearances on the Survivor television program. [1:14:04] The first time she won an immunity. [1:14:06] is the first time she won. [1:14:08] the title. [1:14:09] I and. [1:14:11] In Immunity, she bought the set for her and practiced it. She practiced it on her own. Anybody could do that. Good for her. Samotion's been the final challenge for, I can't even remember how long it's been. Everyone else is complacent and lazy. Yeah, exactly. Everybody knows. And yes, there was a vote, but it's like everybody should put their chip on. It's going to be Samotion because everybody knows it's going to be Samotion. Everybody loves Samotion. Everybody could have done that. And I'll just say, like, I love Sari.

[1:14:41] Yeah. Absolute mastermind, the likes of which we will never see that level of strategic and social play maybe again. [1:14:50] If she could win a challenge one time... [1:14:53] I mean, her threat, she could maybe win this game because that's you need the complete package. And I want to say that I agree with you, Bill, that is specifically a new era. [1:15:03] There have been champions. Yeah, for sure. Gabler. [1:15:07] who came out and literally came out of nowhere. You're like, what? Erica to a degree. [1:15:13] where the editing has not caught up with the way the game is played today, where people stay in the middle, they stay below the surface, and then they burst out late. And I think that that is a production issue that the show needs to figure out in order to drive these narratives stronger. That said, I thought they did a good job with that this season. I really think they did. Well, I think if anything, they did. We all thought she was going to make the final three just from the edit. [1:15:41] Yeah. When she was crying during the mac and cheese, I was like, all right, here we go. When Jonathan put his tongue in the rice, I'm like, he's not winning. [1:15:53] That's not a champion's edit. Oh, man. I think, Bill, you invoked the word cockroach, and I would just pause it. [1:16:00] But that is part of the point. [1:16:01] Outlast is one of the core tenets of Survivor. And like, I think that there are and this is actually I think this is a healthy debate because part of what's fun about Survivor is just like the players have different styles and approaches. Fans of the show have different things they're looking for in a champion and different things they gravitate toward in a player who they form an attachment to. I like all sorts of different Survivor players. Like, I actually think Jonathan played a lot.

[1:16:24] amazing season, you know, and I obviously quite different from Aubrey. And one of the things that was super fun about the back half of the season was that brief moment where they were like, [1:16:32] Should we work together? Literally no one at home or on this beach would ever have anticipated that Aubrey and Jonathan would work together. And it was like riveting. Right. Even for a moment. I think that the. [1:16:44] challenge beast is like a form of survivor dominant dominance i think that the social strategist the tactician the intuitor right all of these things are different i think that there is something undeniably impressive though about just being able to move vote to vote and not because i don't think i just don't think it's impressive no but that's the thing we don't have to vote her out yet she's there's no way i don't agree that was their special she controlled the [1:17:14] ability to make her case, which people forget about that part of it. [1:17:21] Like she told a story about why she should win. [1:17:25] And it resonated with, [1:17:27] That's what my wife said at the end. She was like, because we thought Jonathan had the best quote unquote on paper game. [1:17:35] He couldn't communicate [1:17:37] Why he played the best game. And you could feel him dying in real time during the tribal council because – [1:17:43] And I think there was more there maybe in the edit. It didn't seem like people liked him. [1:17:47] It was interesting to me that all the women, it seemed like, except for Stephanie, were [1:17:52] didn't vote for Jonathan. No, Stephanie and Chrissy both voted for Jonathan. They were the most vociferous in his defense. But how many women didn't vote for him, though? Well, it was eight to three, right? To the point where Tiffany had to say, is there a question in this monologue about Jonathan? I mean, Stephanie, that was just weird. Well, she also covered up for him, too, in one of the biggest episodes where all she had to do was throw him under the bus, and she probably would have escaped, and she didn't. And then she was like, well, I'd

[1:18:20] I was trying to do right by him or whatever she said. I thought that was weird. I mean, that's like an adjustment. Jonathan will play again. There's no question. Right. And I thought one of the cool things, like when Jonathan played his first season, he [1:18:33] Everybody talks about Ozzy as the Jungle Boy. There has never been a more physically dominant single season performance than Jonathan's first season. It was astonishing. He was like Thor. It was crazy. The fact that in between his appearances, he said, I'm going to study at the knee of Boston Rob and really work to improve my game is impressive. So now he will, I have no doubt, make another adjustment. There's no question, Bill, that he's thinking the exact same thing. [1:19:03] And I actually think Jonathan did a pretty good job across the season of like saying what he needed to at tribal council or in a conversation with somebody when he was trying to move a vote. But certainly Aubrey did, too. And I think that like Aubrey got by because she wasn't the biggest threat. There were for weeks now she's been a target. Weeks. So I just don't think that's accurate. Was she always the biggest threat? It is accurate. Which they got rid of Sari. [1:19:26] Because they thought she was the single biggest threat. But she was. They got rid of Tiffany. [1:19:30] Over Aubrey. Because they were afraid Tiffany would win the next immunity and that they wouldn't be able to control the outcome then. But this goes back to my celebration of the middle. And this is why this show is frustrating to me. It really is a microcosm of real life. This is what big companies are like. That's why it's great. This is what ESPN was like. Middle level managers who just figure out how to go under the radar.

[1:19:53] Don't really make noise either way and just kind of strategically survive until other people flame out. [1:20:00] And that's the show. And this is why I stopped watching it because it's frustrating to me. [1:20:04] I, I... [1:20:06] I will disagree with you in the sense that [1:20:08] The middle era of this show, certainly up to winners at war, was let the players play, and very aggressively so. Fewer advantages... [1:20:18] huge alliances, big rivalries, big characters making big moves. It has turned into... [1:20:26] And I think you're framing it a lot more [1:20:28] aggressively than I would. That kind of game in the new era with too many advantages and people playing the middle. That said, I... [1:20:39] I think... [1:20:41] I'm going to critique your take through the lens of Jonathan. I think Jonathan made a... [1:20:47] tactically sound decision that [1:20:50] that, [1:20:51] I can I have a great chance to win the final immunities. And my only real threat in that regard is Tiffany. And so I need her out so I can win that. And then we then we get out, Aubrey, and then we move on. Not realizing that you might not get that chance. And I think it was an ego move. I agree. [1:21:08] And the issue is [1:21:10] People who play as much as Jonathan has grown, he still, I think, thinks of himself as like a challenge player, a physical player. He's always talking about like they only see me as the big guy. I mean, you're talking about how much you're the big guy.

[1:21:24] And I, [1:21:25] He looked at the game through the lens of challenge beast. Tiffany's got to go not looking at the full picture. What are the conversations that are happening when you're not looking? Who has relationships on that jury right now? [1:21:37] Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Who's having conversations that you're not aware of? Who's been involved in votes? Who hasn't had a vote cast against them? [1:21:46] And you've got to look at that whole picture. And Jonathan's not there yet. Rizzo, who I love, is certainly not there yet. [1:21:53] Though I think we'll see him again. [1:21:54] Oh my God, no question. Yeah, but hold on. With the strategy piece, and this is why Jonathan lost, [1:22:00] So Rizzo has an idol that they never flesh out, ever. Two seasons in a row, yeah. Terrible. Incredible. Sari has, they know that, [1:22:10] She's never winning a challenge. She's just not. That's her fatal flaw. It's like Mitchell Robinson's free throw shooting. Like you can do hack a three, put her on the free throw line. She's going to go one of two. [1:22:20] You have to keep her to the final five. [1:22:23] They got rid of her a week too early. That was your week to either get rid of either Aubrey or Tiffany. I forget who had the immunity at that time. I think that was. You keep Serena until the final. He's like, we got to get her out. We got to get her out. It's like, just do it when there's five left or do it when there's four left. What challenge is she winning? There's no way. She's already proven she's been last. If you're doing advanced metrics on it, she's last or second to last in every challenge you're doing. So why do you have to get rid of her before the final four? I just don't understand that. [1:22:53] Nothing. This is like all I would talk about. Yeah. 40 scenarios like this never dawned on them.

[1:23:00] I've had this exact discussion with, like, [1:23:03] I think this is a popular take, you know, in the wake of when specifically Ceri was voted out. And I think that you're undeniably right that if you just look at the probabilities – [1:23:13] Like if you just look at the likelihood of certain outcomes, [1:23:16] you can't argue against the case you just made. There's no, there actually is no counterargument. However... [1:23:23] The... [1:23:24] infinitesimal scenario, however small the likelihood is that some challenge emerges. And like, frankly, I think that production puts a challenge in front of them that is suited to Sari because they so badly want Sari to win. You can't be the person who made the single biggest mistake in Survivor history, which was to allow Sari to get to the final. Wait, do a five lesson. [1:23:48] You get rid of Rizzo and his idol. I don't know. I just didn't agree with that. And I think also taking Sari out is a resume move for people because she's such a beloved player. So they all wanted to be able to say, I'm the one who finally got Sari, the GOAT. [1:24:02] out of the game. And that's like too tantalizing of an elixir to pass on, I think. Yeah, I agree. I think Jonathan had a chance and his chance was get Aubrey out. [1:24:12] When you had the chance, that was it, period. And then lean on your strength as a challenge beast to say, I can beat Tiffany. Why are you running from the smoke? Why are you running from challenging Tiffany head up in the final immunity challenge? Like, take her on. Don't be afraid of that. That's what you're good at.

[1:24:32] I love Tiffany. I was really rooting for her. I thought she had a great season. [1:24:40] Um, [1:24:41] I understand why you'd want to get her out, but I also don't feel like she had the same connections. And part of that, I mean, you guys have been watching the show the whole time. I watched... [1:24:49] I don't know, the first 20, first 25, I can't remember. And then I'd fade it off. [1:24:54] The part that was different for me than maybe you guys is... [1:24:58] The history of these people on the shows was such a big part of how everybody perceived who they should vote for, who is in control. [1:25:06] They were using the past. It was like, [1:25:08] Why Riz couldn't win because he hasn't tasted his blood enough or whatever stupid reason it was. [1:25:14] And I was just watching like, who's playing the best game this year? [1:25:17] And to me, I thought Jonathan and Tiffany were way better. And I actually thought Riz was better than Aubrey too. [1:25:22] But then everybody was pulling in the past and you were so close against Michelle. And I was like, I didn't see that season. I don't even know what that means. I'm just judging you by this year when you were just in the middle doing nothing. [1:25:33] For most of the season. [1:25:35] I'll say that I think that there is... [1:25:38] There's active activity there. [1:25:40] On the island, playing the game, making moves... [1:25:43] et cetera, [1:25:44] And then there's this passive ability to read the game. And I think that is what this middle play that Aubrey displayed is. [1:25:52] shows. I think Tiffany had an ability to read the game. What she was missing was an ability to rally people to get Aubrey out. She saw it. [1:25:59] Aubrey is the threat. [1:26:01] We need to do this. But she couldn't build those connections to make it happen. Yeah, she was annoyed by people. That's how I would be in this game. I would just start to get annoyed by like six, seven people. I can't help it. Very much the same. But...

[1:26:15] That, reading the game, I think is the thing that is both... [1:26:20] the most [1:26:22] amorphous, hard to visualize as a as an audience member because you have that omniscient view. You can see everything. You know what's happening basically on the island from 30,000 feet above. And. [1:26:35] It's also what makes the game so frustrating. I think, you know, Jonathan didn't do press after the finale. And I think... [1:26:43] And if you watched him, [1:26:44] other podcasts have noted this other people have watched the finale he had like a big dip in his lip I think just chewing he looks very unhappy still I think he thought he won [1:26:57] Oh, wow. [1:26:58] He must have thought he won... [1:27:01] And he and I think he thinks I think he realizes he made a two million dollar mistake. I think that's known for a full year plus because that's how long ago this was filmed that he didn't win. And he has spent every day stewing on and anticipating this moment of public regret. That's that's that's how long it was in the moment. Yes. Oh, yeah. It was like, yes, it's been a year. The prediction markets had Aubrey at like 36 percent before the show even started, which I didn't know any of this till last night. [1:27:30] And then heading into this final episode, she was the prohibitive favorite. [1:27:35] That's not surprising to me just because even though they had not actually read the votes, much like before the game, you know, the Zoom alliance, all of the pregame. You're not supposed to pregame, but they do. They form alliances. They talk. Similarly, you know, everyone's like, who'd you vote for? Who'd you vote for? And it's NDAs are not enough. People know that at some point word gets out and then it travels. I did not know that about the markets and Aubrey, but I think the edit, frankly, from episode one made it pretty clear that Aubrey was going to make it far because there was we had these kind of two phases of the edit.

[1:28:05] First one, you know, like Christian was the player I was most... Tyson, host of Ringer, excellent Ringer podcast, The Pod of Spoken. If you were listening to this and have not checked out The Pod of Spoken, check it out. If you love Survivor, it's a fantastic podcast. Tyson is the best. He's my favorite Survivor player ever. One of my most recent new favorites is Christian from David versus Goliath, right? Christian is... I was... When the cast list for season 50 came out, I was just overjoyed that we were going to get to see Christian play again. Christian was so prominent in the early episodes that I was like, [1:28:34] Fuck. There's literally no chance Christian is winning this season because they wouldn't be devoting this much time. Yeah. Yeah. So Aubrey was in that interesting spot where there was it was so conspicuous in episode one centering this feud. [1:28:52] between Genevieve and Aubrey that did end up bearing fruit and being really meaningful in the inane Blood Moon episode, but had no consequence early on in terms of being featured as prominently as it was. So it's like they're telling us this is going to matter for a reason. And then we get to the middle of like the surging. I'm an underdog, right? OK, I won't make the same mistakes I have in the past. People start targeting Aubrey. Then they start talking about how Aubrey has a good story. Oh, Tiff's making some good points. I think this has been, again, I love Survivor. [1:29:22] of it where you're watching a challenge and the literally the scoring the music of the scene changes right before the outcome of the the challenge you're like i guess i know who's about to hit this shot and win why do they do this yeah they tip the edit there was a period a few years ago where they worked more actively i think to obscure the outcome and how they edit the show because so many people were on to it there were a couple candidates i guess and how this season was edited i think jonathan was one of them as well where it was like the way he's

[1:29:52] Tiffany is the opposite. Yeah. I didn't feel like they spent enough time on her. And meanwhile, she was cranking out challenges. The only finalist, the only Final Five contestant with a no confessional episode. Right. And so I think they really... [1:30:07] They really overcorrected on Tiffany's edit in particular. [1:30:11] Sorry. [1:30:13] Tiff is great. [1:30:14] she'll win at some point she will win so will Rizzo [1:30:18] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [1:30:21] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [1:30:28] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [1:30:32] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [1:30:38] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [1:30:57] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [1:31:10] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [1:31:14] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [1:31:17] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boris had committed to craft since 1905.

[1:31:26] Did you think there were too many gimmicks this season? [1:31:28] No question. No question. Not only too many gimmicks, but too many... [1:31:36] game-breaking destructive gimmicks. It's one thing to have, like, Blood Moon, and it was, like, inane, it didn't really matter. But then you have, like... [1:31:45] The Jimmy Fallon one turn, which was basically outrageous, put a gun in. [1:31:49] Christian's hand and tell him he has to shoot himself. Like, there was no chance he came back from that. Yeah. And... [1:31:57] Too many of the advantages were like that. The Billie Eilish boomerang, which... [1:32:02] It's notable to me how many longtime Survivor watchers and Survivor contestants turned Survivor content creators were, [1:32:13] have continuously been like, oh, [1:32:16] Rizzo should give the... No, he can't. [1:32:20] It's the boomerang. He has to keep it. And that mechanic alone is, [1:32:25] is just dumb. We want to see players make deals. We want to see players be active, not get locked in these boxes and too many of the gimmicks. They gamified it. [1:32:34] They randomize the game too much. And two, I think they're just too... [1:32:39] prohibitively dangerous to the person who gets them. [1:32:44] I could not possibly agree more. I think, again, the true celebrity in Survivor Season 50 is Survivor, so let's center the gameplay. Now, I think, like, the shock of the century to me is that the Mr. Beast thing, which I had been dreading, given how prominently I've been teased in the trailers, was, like, kind of amazing, actually. And Devin's at the center of just a— Yeah. So it's, I think, two things. One, when Jeff is talking about the Blood Moon and how iconic and historic it's going to be, and that's why we're here, to make us historic moments.

[1:33:14] That there are not that's not how a historic iconic survivor moment happens by you saying out loud it's about to happen. It happens organically and authentically because of the decisions that the players make. And the Blood Moon robbed the players of the ability to make decisions based on their play to that point by artificially dividing them into groups that were too small. Do you the pot of spoken crew talked about this a lot of the time, but do a 17 person tribal. That would have actually been historic. Now, the Mr. Beast thing worked out because. [1:33:41] It came up, right, Beast, and they got the two million. Great. But it allowed Devin to behave fearlessly and boldly, which is his game. It was an amplifier for how he already plays. And I think it revealed everybody else's collective cowardice because they let him do it, which was demented. How could nobody else stand up and say, I'm going to do this instead? [1:34:11] it deprived a player who we love to watch operate of the ability to operate at all. It violates a sacred survivor tenet, which is the one thing you will never have to do on the island is write down your own name. So right away, I'm out. But it's just once you go back and you have to read that out loud and say that and then do it, [1:34:31] There's literally nothing you can do to save yourself at that point. And then what are all of the alliances and the gamesmanship for? Genevieve, who I think is a great player. [1:34:39] found two idols and got voted out because the game didn't allow either of them to make it back to her in time because of that artificial division of the structure. So like, I think the moments that heightened gameplay and centered it and allowed the decisions that the players had made to that point and wanted to make in the future to be at the fore, including like fire making, right?

[1:35:09] I was like, my jaw was on the floor. I'm like, I can't, this is actually poetic. This is like, this is mythic. This is what survivor is. Jimmy Fallon coming in or like a 25 minute, [1:35:21] spearfishing aside with a survivor super fan. I'm like, I'm a survivor super fan. I didn't get to go do that. Why do I need to watch this? You know, I, the moments that moved me the most this season were like Ozzy crying about his father. And I was like, I did not expect to feel this way about an Ozzy scene, but I'm like bowled over by this really moved. How many times do you cry? Um, I was genuinely affected by that Ozzy moment. And even something really like, you know, like, [1:35:51] really touched me. The moment that got me the most this season, not even close, won't surprise Jason, who knows about my Colby obsession to hear this, but like, Colby being voted out, it got me because it's like, not just because he's just insanely hot and always has been and one of my formative crushes and I was sad not to get to see him, but like, [1:36:09] that's a moment that only season 50 of Survivor can give us, which is like this person you watched grow up on your TV, sit there. The guy used to be a hotshot, challenge beast, dominant, beloved, like poster boy, heartthrob. Then he comes back. He can't get it done. He doesn't handle it well. You know, then the third time and like to be there after 24 years in his 50s as like the fatherly figure and sit there with that like humility and humbleness and grace. I was like, this is actually

[1:36:39] to me to have watched this person move through the phases of his life and to see the way it impacted the other players around him who were in tears having to send him home knowing he would probably not be back i was like this is why i'm watching season 50 this is amazing also one of the top 15 people that were more charismatic this season than the winner aubrey i mean i don't i will say that i don't disagree that oh god she's not oozing charisma by any what were your [1:37:09] I love the Genevieve feud, but I but those that's one of those editing decisions where, you know, from my perspective, it was they gazed at each other across the beach. [1:37:20] And then hated each other. And no explanation. I want to know what happened. And they should have made more... [1:37:29] hay out of whatever that was, because it seemed so deeply felt that both of them were just simply not going to work with each other after whatever happened on that beach. But that was that was great. And that's the stuff I love is these petty rivalries, alliances based on, [1:37:47] Based on nothing. [1:37:49] You know, just like vibing with somebody and being like, I don't like that person. [1:37:54] Yeah. [1:37:55] Can I give you my Mr. Beast impression on the show? Please. Please. [1:38:00] Bigger teeth, whiter Did somebody tell him like Hey, you're probably going to be nervous out there Just smile like you're a serial killer For the entire time you're out there That's one note

[1:38:14] My most disappointing moment was when Christian turned on Mike White, who had befriended him and even brought him to the White Lotus thing. And I do feel like... [1:38:23] I feel like Christian worked a long con on Mike White, who loves this show and should know better. Oh, come on. Oh, I'm telling you. First of all. I think Mike White was like, this is my guy right here. Meanwhile, Christian did the full fucking Scarface double cross on him. First of all, is anybody working a longer con than Michael White? That's the thing. He got out con. Multiple survivor players into the White Lotus universe. Yeah, and he got out con. [1:38:53] co-host of the official podcast with Mr. Probst, and who dangles these appearances in White Lotus as boons for being in his orbit. I think Mike... [1:39:07] I think Mike was trying to do the exact thing to Christian that Christian did to him. Only Christian got there first. And honestly, Christian had to. He had to do it at that moment. Mike White, another more charismatic contestant than Aubrey. Very true. Put that into the list. That wasn't it. So Christian and Mike played together, right? They were on. And that is my favorite season of Survivor. If anyone's like, what old season should I check out? I mean, there are a ton. Heroes versus villains. Blood versus water. I mean, there are a million. Yeah, all the Tony seasons. Winners of War. They're fantastic. [1:39:37] but like [1:39:39] David versus Goliath is a fantastic standalone season. And a lot of those characters have been a part of survivor lore moving forward. Christian was on the one hand, right to identify that, like, people were looking at them. And Mike was too willing to say, like, my David versus Goliath guys are my guys. Like, let's do it. Christian, realizing that was a threat, was right. I think that there was no, literally no chance that anyone who was playing this season was going to give bazillionaire Mike White $2 million in prize money.

[1:40:09] don't think he needed to be eliminated in that sense but he's in the final five yeah he is a very compelling and artful director of decisions and i thought the way that he like with the laser beam to the heart [1:40:22] Yeah. Picked at that scab at that Gabby wound for that was a mistake. Holy shit. Like that was riveting to watch. Not again. The context there is Christian and Gabby had a what seemed like a rock side alliance. Yes. Bordering on perhaps a mutual crush like it was. Oh. [1:40:43] It was powerful television. And at a crucial moment, she turns on him. He survives it. [1:40:52] But ultimately, it does wound his campaign going forward. And it was a big, big moment. And for Mike to put his finger on that, I thought was... [1:41:03] I thought it was too soon for that kind of move. And I will add this. I think... [1:41:07] Mike's other [1:41:09] mistake, if you could call that, he came in too shredded. [1:41:12] keep your shirt on yeah yeah keep your shirt on yeah don't don't be like i've been working with the guy who you know gets the hemsworths ready for the cinematic universe to prepare for this you're it's it's [1:41:25] Telling too much yeah [1:41:27] He had to go. [1:41:30] We didn't talk about Joe yet. [1:41:32] Joe with the goose egg in the final three. [1:41:35] Very rough. He has not done well in the finals twice, which is really tough. And Sari just drive-by shot him with the Joe-tation, whatever she said. That was just an unbelievable throat slit. That was so, so, so good. Joe probably should have been a red flag for him that everybody was so delighted to never talk about him, never vote him out.

[1:41:58] and just keep them going. Yeah. Everybody saw him the same way. [1:42:03] I think Joe showed... [1:42:04] good growth towards the end of this season, recognizing that his career, [1:42:10] honor and integrity kind of gameplay. [1:42:13] is one, very old-fashioned, and two, just is not a way to... [1:42:19] to win the game, to go far in the game, to be a threat to win the game on any level. That said, he brought it up in... [1:42:26] the final tribal council talking about how he, he added some, [1:42:30] layers to his gameplay. And that's the part that didn't resonate with me at all. I did not feel that Joe meaningfully. Here's the thing. [1:42:40] Joe, as a Survivor player, thinks he's playing the honesty and integrity game. And to a certain extent, he is in relation to everybody else. He's also lying and playing Survivor early, but not recognizing it. And then later, when he's saying, oh, I had to add these lies to his game. Where? Yeah. You didn't. Yes. I didn't remember that either. My wife and I were like, did Joe do a double cross that we forget? I think he was trying to basically reposition something, like saying to Coach... [1:43:10] Coach, as always, one of the most bankable experiences in this unpredictable world is that watching Coach on Survivor will be the highlight of a lifetime. Another one more charismatic than Aubrey. I'll just keep listing him. He is such an incredible character. I just can't, like, I personally never tire of it. But saying to Coach, I will never write your name down. And then we get the Pairs elimination, which was, like, again, an example of, I thought, a much better twist than some of the ones that were touted in the moment of being, like, a huge twist.

[1:43:40] like actually interesting to pair people. And then you have to vote out two people at once. I like that. Yeah, that was really good. Now, I think that Joe is Joe is a little bit of a like every person inside of them has two wolves. Right. Like for me personally, because as Jason knows. [1:43:56] Watching Joe a couple of seasons ago with Eva was, [1:43:59] was like one of the most emotional and moving and deeply, I think, genuinely deeply affecting experiences in the history of Survivor. It was it was it was blockbuster television to the point that I am convinced production tinkered with the challenges to keep Joe in the game for two or three extra episodes when they realized he couldn't do a puzzle. It's entirely possible. It was just beautiful to watch that. I thought, like, sincerely, it was. [1:44:25] That said, [1:44:27] Joe going back to camp after like Devin's gives us one of the most authentically- [1:44:33] incredible moments in survivor history and joe says to everybody has the fucking gall to say to everybody [1:44:40] That was disgusting. Wasn't appropriate. I'm like, dude, what game do you think you're playing? This is Survivor. Now, I think people trying to play their version of Survivor is fine. And if you want to do the Honor Integrity Alliance, like, it's not personally for me. I like watching people stab each other in the back and cut each other's throats and then try to justify why the person they did that to should give them a million dollars. Like, that's amazing. But. [1:45:01] If you want to try to do it differently, that's your prerogative. That's actually fine. Don't [1:45:06] say you can't believe that other people are doing the thing that everybody is there to watch the whole point of the show. Yeah. Yeah. Why else do we have it?

[1:45:16] Um, [1:45:18] Who is the one, if we reset this season and just started over again, who is the one that got voted out a little earlier, Jason, that? [1:45:26] You feel like... [1:45:28] Man, it's almost like a sports series where it's like, oh, man, if they didn't hit that three in game one, we probably could have won that one. [1:45:35] I think there are several, but I'm going to go with Genevieve. I think Genevieve is one of the most dynamic players we've seen in the new era, and he's [1:45:44] Yeah. [1:45:44] in her previous season, had this ability to scramble from the bottom against adverse situations, hold fast to... [1:45:56] toxic allies as meat shields in a way that showed a level of yeah of ability to read the game that i think and and read the middle game that i think is uncommon and she's very smart very tactical and i think that's why aubrey had to get her out immediately immediately they played another charismatic one yeah i think genevee's a great pick for that i have i have two nominees one is very quick because it was it was injury so there's not much to talk about but kyle i think would have [1:46:26] And he's one of the more impressive winners in recent memory. And I would actually be fascinated, Bill, for you to go back and watch his season, given your overall feeling about kind of like biding your time as a strategy. Because the way he did it, I thought I was like, you should be like in MI6. Like it was it was really unbelievable. And I think you would really have respected his game and wanted to watch him play the season.

[1:46:56] Because this was just a bizarre self-immolation that didn't need to happen. And I think it was kind of interesting to watch, given that it was very genuinely born out of his personal trauma from Maria. Charlie's a really good player. He did incredibly well in his season. He had an alliance that took him very far. And his ally, as we know, even if you didn't see his season, you know from watching this season, his number one didn't vote for him. And he has just never gotten over it. Like, it's a sincere, sincere wound he carries. [1:47:26] the Rizzo thing and allowed that this, this, this misread this, [1:47:31] misperception that Rizzo was Maria and had done to his ally what Maria had done to him to he imploded his own game because of like the wrong read on someone he hadn't watched play and I think whether like you let your own personal trauma or baggage lead you to a certain certain decision is like very human and that's interesting to watch but I wish Charlie had just been like [1:47:54] All I know is what people are saying out loud. [1:47:56] And why would Rizzo... [1:47:58] in any way tell us the truth about what happened i shouldn't let this be the arbiter of the decisions that i make it just was so strange the hold it had on him and i wish we had gotten to watch him play a little longer because he's a i think he's quite a capable player [1:48:12] Jason, um, [1:48:13] I know it just happened, so you probably need more time to reflect. Sure. [1:48:18] What do you think? [1:48:19] What do you think, Riz? What do you think this final three meant to the Albanian community? Well, I was saying when, you know, Rizzo was talking about how important this is, the Albanian community, that first of all, they have Dua Lipa, so they're good. I think the Albanian community at large is doing okay. You know, Action Bronson.

[1:48:40] Granit Xhaka, former Arsenal player. We're doing okay. Reruns are taken on TNT. They're doing good. [1:48:47] They're doing well. I think Rizzo, listen, Rizzo's got a lot of potential. I think we'll see him again. I think he maybe overrates his own game to a degree. He needed to control a vote. If you're never going to be able to win a challenge, you need to swing a vote somewhere down the line. And he was just, I think, a little too passive. [1:49:08] and ultimately cut his allies off at the knees way too soon. He needed to skate through... [1:49:15] I think one more vote with Sari and Ozzy. I thought he needed to, don't you think he needed a flip when there was like six left and do a new alliance with, [1:49:25] with Tiff and Serene, I think would have been a move. Yeah, I mean, that's a move, too. Because he was drawn dead in the one he was in, I think. He was always going to be the third guy in that group. [1:49:35] Here's where I'll disagree. I think that there's two ways to do it. And both are very strong historically. Yeah. One way is you have one. [1:49:44] Only one. [1:49:45] Number one ally. And you say, you and me, we're going to the end. And whatever happens there happens. [1:49:52] Or you flip at some point. Both of those work really well. [1:49:57] But, [1:49:58] you know, I think [1:50:00] There's so many examples of you need that one ally. You just need the one. And I thought that Rizzo had gone too far down the road. [1:50:08] With Sari... [1:50:09] to not hold on to her for at least one more till you get back together. I mean, like, till you get back together and you get to do it,

[1:50:17] But Serena had like four people like that. That was one of the great things about her game. Yeah. Because everybody felt like they were her number one. And meanwhile... [1:50:25] You know, Sariva's getting around. [1:50:27] Yeah, I mean, that's part of her magic is the ability to just win everybody to her cause and really, truly steer and direct the outcome. She's like CR. It's like if CR was on Survivor. CR just floats into different groups. I think he'd do very well. He'd do great. He'd do great. Except for the pack. He'd need the nicotine. Could they be able to eardrop on the nicotine? [1:50:48] I think CR would get double-crossed, and it would be one of the most devastating moments in Survivor history. Too trusting? Yeah, too trusting. Too nice of a guy. [1:51:01] Beloved by all, warm, open heart, and then just absolutely eviscerated when he least expected. That's the whole point of the show. It would be great TV. I really liked Rizzo, though. I enjoyed him, and I think he was actually... [1:51:12] I wonder, should you hold back during the early tribal councils? [1:51:17] Because if you're just like, he's somebody who could have like a podcast. Like he's just like on the more eloquent side of those things. [1:51:24] So I think as he's like, just very like for two minutes, just laying out like some big picture angle on the show, they had to have been thinking like, I don't want to be in the final three with this guy. He's going to be able to explain his case the best. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like he is able to not only succinctly and clearly say the thing that needs to be said, but he does it with, as he would say, some cinema, right? Like he makes it really compelling and dramatic. He draws the eye. Rizzo is one of my favorite recent players.

[1:51:54] it my sense jay i'm curious if you agree with this from 49 i think this is a pretty widely shared experience very similar to like what colby went through in real time on season 50 where the first couple episodes you're like [1:52:05] what's going on with this guy? Like, this is really a lot. And then you just fall in love with him. And it's so fun to watch him play. And I think, like... [1:52:13] In general, I'm not. [1:52:15] I think a problem with the recent seasons of Survivor. [1:52:19] is that the players are way too self-aware. They're all super fans. They're obsessed with the game. They all think they're survivor scholars. And so they're not only constantly like, I'm the best. I know exactly how to do this because I've crunched the tape for my entire life. I think the part of it that's fun is they're awed by the experience. When you have a season like this where you can watch Rizzo pull coach aside and say to a player he idolizes and grew up watching, [1:52:44] We don't slay dragons... [1:52:47] at camp we do it at tribal like it was incredible and i think watching the way that he navigated his interactions with these people he idolizes was genuinely impressive but he's he transcends i think like a little bit of a flaw with the current game because most of the players are who are obsessives are too there was a season a few seasons ago i can't remember which one it was where like i think six of the players were podcasters or in the media and it's like they're just too hyper aware of what their image is going to be and how they're going to play as tv [1:53:17] in addition to as like survivor players and i would love obviously we're not getting that because the t's for 51 which i have to be honest i could barely follow and did not understand like the open era explanation of like all the advantages and everything that's ever happened in the game is in the mix i'm like i'm not really totally like following more twist more adventure we need the opposite we need a clean slate i completely agree yeah it seems like that i mean this is just a guess i you know

[1:53:41] But it seemed like maybe they're going to try and do a one world type of situation. So, Bill, one world was there were no two camps. There were no two tribes. Everybody was just on the same beach. That is kind of interesting to me if they're going to do that. But I agree with Mal. Like, let the players play. Take out some of these randomizing elements that have been introduced lately. I think that there was now maybe Jeff has data that backs up that people actually love this stuff. And in which case, fine. [1:54:10] That said, for me, as a person who's been watching a long time, there is like an ideal... [1:54:15] that that crested in survivor i would say like around david's risk elias milenius gen x when it was like a minimum of advantages and idols and you knew that when an idol left it was coming back that was very predictable and it allowed players to just play yeah and now i think you're looking over your shoulder you're wondering if i pick up this advantage how is it going to harm me there's just too many things that take the players out of the experience and [1:54:43] in ways that I think... [1:54:47] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[1:55:16] Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. [1:55:45] I think hurt the game. [1:55:47] Did you both miss having an actual reading special where we learned more stuff about bad blood between people and did people regret stuff and... [1:55:57] Because I know Jeff Probst is on the record as like, he didn't really like those things anymore. [1:56:02] I kind of enjoy them. I almost wish they had done a one hour and just put it on Paramount or something. They couldn't put it in the three hour window. I like seeing the bad blood. And I like learning more about how people felt about the show. I thought it was weird they punted on that. [1:56:16] I always like when Jeff asks, like, if this person had been at the end instead, who would have voted for them and they raised their hands and the person who made it in this case, it didn't happen this way because Aubrey made the right decision to choose to take Joe. But plenty of plenty of players who have made a decision about who to choose to have next. I mean, the wrong decision and that person is one. And it's like something they think about until the day they die. Right. Yeah. And then Jeff asked, would you have? And it's like just a it's an unbelievable thing to watch those hands go up in the air.

[1:56:46] if that had happened, Bill, if we had just gotten a true like reunion hour at the end, what we would not have gotten. Oh, yes. Was Moonlight La La Land all over again. One of the most [1:56:57] That batshit what the fuck just happened. Live TV moments in the history of pop culture. Like, I don't think we're overstating it to say that Jeff's boiling fire making. Jeff bringing out Rizzo and saying. In the final four. At the final four. It was weird when Rizzo came out. It's like, this is unorthodox. Why are you still in the game? What happened? Rizzo was like, what am I doing out here? He tried to kind of, like, roll with it. You know, until Jeff was, at the end, was like, okay, go sit down. [1:57:27] and then realized, like, oh, you spoiled it. Yes! So Jeff's explanation... [1:57:32] which I watched this morning on one of the morning shows, was that [1:57:36] And this part makes sense. He's not watching the shows that's happening because he's already seen it. He's probably been involved with the editing. Probably like, no, no, use camera too. I don't like that angle of me for that one. He's doing all that. So he's seen it and he's prepping and he's getting the live stuff ready. And it's hard to host a live show as I've said previously. [1:57:53] Many times. It's hard to host. Yeah. So I empathize with him. Yeah. He clearly... [1:57:59] Either got bad information from a producer. 100%. [1:58:02] or got discombobulated. I would go with the bad information. [1:58:08] Um, [1:58:08] Because you're doing a three-hour show. You're live. You're going from here to there. [1:58:13] There's a possibility, and I would say this as an older guy who had two brain farts already this year in the podcast, there's a possibility he just brain farted and forgot that they hadn't shown the Rizzo thing yet. And now retroactively is like, oh, they told me.

[1:58:27] I don't know. What do you think? Is it brain fart or producer mistake, Jason? [1:58:32] Having been around TV and live productions enough, [1:58:36] That is a mistake that [1:58:39] is structural. 15 people made that mistake. There is a director and a segment producer who, it might be that Jeff was like, okay, now let's bring on Rizzo, brain fart. [1:58:49] But then like five to 10 other people need to just be like, okay, I guess we'll make this mistake right now. Like Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, don't, don't spoil the fire. Don't spoil the fire. Nothing. Or somebody come running down the aisle and go like this. It's, it should not have happened. And it happened because a whole. . . [1:59:10] load-bearing part of the production collapsed, not just Jeff. There's no way it's just his fault. Yes, I think. They decorate camp and particularly tribal council on these sets with a lot of specific touches. There'll be shields or phoenixes. Sometimes there are skulls. And I would encourage everyone who's a part of this production to get a scan of their skull committed to the public record [1:59:40] that is part of the set deck and make sure that the people who did this were not murdered by Jeff Brooks, because this is not something that should have happened. And we were texting in real time because, first of all, I don't think it's possible that it was like... Yeah, because we were all watching this in real time on the West Coast. Yes. I don't think it's possible that there's an explanation of like, he was going to bring Rizzo out and just the mistake was simply saying, go sit down, you become the final member of the jury, which obviously was astonishing when he said that out loud, because then it was undeniable what had happened. And then the hush that fell

[2:00:10] saying, wait, what just happened? My heart was like seizing watching it. The fact that Rizzo came out at all, once that happens, no matter what Jeff says from there, they have fucked it up because why is Rizzo out there? Yeah, exactly. So I think that it has to be just the sequencing and the fact that that happened at all before that segment had aired is just a colossal mistake. The thing that we were texting about was like, why didn't they, because it's aired live on the East Coast. It's done. There's nothing you can do about it. So everyone will know. And that's like [2:00:40] However, we were texting like, why did they not edit this out of the West Coast airing? And Paramount the next day. Yeah. And I was so baffled by that until I kept watching and saw that the answer was clear, which was that Jeff then went on to reference it five times from there. So you couldn't have edited it out because the rest of the show wouldn't have made sense. And I give Jeff... [2:01:04] Huge credit for that because, you know, [2:01:07] This was like... [2:01:08] I mean, the fact that it's like what all the articles are about and it's like the lead of every conversation today is such a huge bummer. Oh, wait a second. Next week. Did they intend to do this intentionally? Oh, yeah. Get the news cycle going. Get the news cycle going. But like, oh, my God, I think there is something. This is the spin that I put on it if I'm Jeff. [2:01:31] Survivor is a game about humanity and overcoming failure and mistakes. And so there is something so meta about it. In the season where Jeff put himself into a challenge and then bombed and had to say, boy, I really like have more respect for what you guys are all doing out there, that Jeff basically didn't say the right thing in his version of Final Tribal.

[2:02:01] That's super hard. People, people are mad, Jason. [2:02:05] This angered people. [2:02:07] I get it. I mean, he did spoil a huge part of it. But again, not his fault alone. It can't be. He's not running the cameras. He's not bringing Rizzo from the green room to the front. [2:02:20] to the stage door. There's a million things, other moving parts that are happening that had to fail to let that happen. Big winner. [2:02:28] Rizzo. [2:02:29] Because he was just pathetic in the fire challenge. And nobody remembers now because it was the probe's mistake. Guy's practicing all day and he can't even get a spark. [2:02:38] First two-time loser in fire. That's another one of my controversial takes. I don't love the fire. [2:02:45] I don't love it as a designer. I just feel like it's become... [2:02:50] It's too important of a thing in the show's legacy. I get it in the early days, but in the early days, they did a lot of things different. [2:02:56] Remember in the early days, each person would walk... [2:03:00] in front of the three people left. And it was almost like they were a defense attorney just ripping everyone apart before. I love that. Here's my one. Why did they get away from that? If there were fire, I wouldn't spit on you? Yeah. Why did they get away from that? I used to love when they would get up and walk and they would have a whole thing prepared. They don't do that anymore. Fire has become... [2:03:21] Much more important. [2:03:23] post like season 38 when, uh, [2:03:26] Rick Devins was notably eliminated after Chris Underwood came off of the edge of extinction and had the brilliant idea, really, truly like revolutionary survivor idea that I've been out of the game for so long, the way to prove that I'm.

[2:03:43] in it to win it is I will put myself in fire and say, yes, come challenge me. I will win. [2:03:49] And he won and he ended up winning the season. That is that organically became such a moment that now it's. [2:03:56] basically part of the show. I'm on the fence about it. [2:04:01] I think sometimes it's very compelling, other times not. I would like to see Jeff move fire earlier. [2:04:06] Oh! [2:04:07] Yeah. Like seven prize people with it. Yeah. Interesting. Huh. Um, [2:04:13] We do a Game of Thrones Survivor. [2:04:16] of all the characters who wins. [2:04:18] Oh gosh. [2:04:19] Joffrey voted out early. Joffrey's number one. Joffrey just kills somebody in the middle of the challenge. You might keep him around because he's so crazy. And that everybody wants him out. If I can get Joffrey to the final three? Yeah. [2:04:35] Littlefinger thinks he's going to win, but around six, seven left, I think he gets shanked. Littlefinger's a classic overconfident, irrational confidence guy and survivor for sure. So just had this debate. [2:04:49] Joe talked me into Tyrion. [2:04:52] Which I think is probably a pretty good answer, especially aligned with the canon of the show, where Tyrion makes it through basically everything he needs to make it through. And then at the end says... [2:05:03] basically in Final Tribal, like inexplicable things. Everyone's like, sounds good. [2:05:08] You know, so I think Joe's case for Karin is a strong one. Yeah. That's pretty good. I like that. I like that one as well. I would say also Varys...

[2:05:17] because he's got a great story. [2:05:19] You know, he's got the personal you've got to be able to. [2:05:23] weaponize your personal trauma at some point during the show. Yeah. And who can do that? A tactical player, strategic tactical player who can do that can win. But I also agree. I think Tyrion is. I think Margaery makes the final four. [2:05:36] Yeah. [2:05:37] really good but gets a lot of flirt relationships going with multiple cast members who feel like they might have a chance after the showman potential showman yeah i think she's working that yeah i can't have a targaryen out there they take their torch and they just light people on fire that's not gonna work you know who is the one brianna tarth i think she gets the final five too well that's a great one too because you have brand and jamie out there it's like an alliance no one really saw coming pod podrick would do well i think podrick would do really well quite [2:06:07] Brienne as an alliance. Incredible. Talk about like a showman, so will they, won't they? That would be gangbusters, the kind of thing that Jeff could not stop talking about at the finale. And then JV has to make his Cersei or Brienne choice at the end, and we're all like, no! It's too good. Well, the other thing is, they're used to really malodorous people from Game of Thrones in the 1300s. There was not a lot of deodorant back then. I wanted to ask you guys that. People were in the same clothes for months. [2:06:33] They brought the family... It's always emotional when the family members come out, but this is later than we usually get to see this. These guys stink. They are rank. Yeah. You don't even want to... It's like a fist bump from a couple feet away, right? The brothers, the mom and daughter, okay. But Joe's wife...

[2:06:50] I'm sorry. I'm just going to be honest. I was watching this and I was like, if Adam had made it to the final three of season 50 of Survivor and I was brought out on a boat, I would not lovingly embrace him and tell him, just own your game. I would be like, can you eat a coconut or something? Can we freshen up a little bit before? This is really tough. The game probably blows out everyone's nostrils after six weeks. You become nose blind. Because Probst at one point he hugs Sari and [2:07:18] Yeah. After something. And he was like, whoa, he did one of those. And you forget like how gaming because it's like, what, 90 degrees every day. And they're just wearing the same shirt for six weeks. They used to be a lot dirtier, too. I mean, they're filthy now for sure. Yeah. But they used to be. [2:07:36] so disgustingly dirty. [2:07:39] that it was absolutely notable. Sleeping in rat-filled caves. It's really like toned down from what it used to be on the hygiene front. I miss it. I miss those days. Yeah, there must be real reasons for that. [2:07:51] All right. We just went an hour. Did we hit everything? I think we did. [2:07:55] It's just a shame that Sarri didn't get to win the season. Just say that one more time. [2:07:59] I'll just I said it on on the pot of Spogan and I believe this I I wish she could have been on a season that was a mix of newcomers and veterans. [2:08:11] Much like Boston Robb's season, which no disrespect to Boston Robb, he's an absolute legend in the game. Legend, legend, legend. But it was him and Russell. He got Russell out early and a bunch of newcomers. And then it was just like target dummies to the win.

[2:08:26] That's legit, but I wish we would have seen Sari really work her magic against [2:08:31] more newcomer players, not just the best of the best. Have they ever done... [2:08:37] like over 40 people. [2:08:38] the entire cast is over 40 or over 50, anything like that? Like a senior survivor almost? Golden Bachelor, but for Survivor? Yeah. Silver Survivor, Golden Survivor? What a senior survivor, like Crush? [2:08:49] You know, just do like a little mini season of like 14 people. But then you get Colby, you get all these people anyway, and you don't have to worry about the challenges being as dangerous. I'm weighing. They can also brand it a little more like kindly, like something about wisdom. Right. You know, the wisdom of the years. Like they don't have to be like, you fuckers are old. But I do think that they have started casting way too young. Like the bulk of the cast now each season is really, really young. Two generations of Survivor. Yeah. [2:09:19] lived a lot of life are out there. So that would be great. Maybe that would be what inspires my wife to finally go on. I've been pushing for it forever. Her new thing... She would do amazing. Her new thing was like, I just wouldn't be able to... She'd win probably three, four challenges, but she would also probably kill Jeff [2:09:39] Because the narration of him during the challenges, she'd be like, Jeff, shut the fuck up. That's why you never quit on Survivor. There's Carrie Simmons. [2:09:49] Jeff, shut up. I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to do a puzzle. Stop talking. He really dialed it up in general this year, I felt like. It felt like...

[2:09:59] I don't know. He was locked in, which made the reunion thing so funny that he fucked that up. Well, we'll see. We'll see how many people either get fired or murdered after reunion special. Mallory, when are you going on? Wait a second. You know, I can't say I'm like up on all the conspiracy theories. There's got to be one conspiracy you care about. Whatever one you've got gestating, the door is open. You don't care about scuba divers at the Maldives? [2:10:24] I have been served a couple Instagram reels about that, I will say. I don't know if it has any connection to Survivor and the amount of beautiful ocean visuals in my Instagram algorithm right now in general. But I'll give it some thought. I'll see if the production team of the live Survivor Season 50 special mysteriously disappears. Count me in. I'll be tracking it with interest. [2:10:54] It started disappearing one at a time. How many are we up to? Like eight? [2:10:58] I think it's 11 or 12. I think we're up to. Oh, God. [2:11:03] Unbelievable. I might have to come on soon because I have a whole NBA thing [2:11:08] We can do NBA on Wait a Second, right? Absolutely. Sports conspiracies are... I have a really hardcore... I might have to get dressed up as conspiracy bill the whole thing. Yeah, it's one of those. Yeah, it's one of those. [2:11:24] Doors open anytime. And we've got the Zodiac Killer also waiting for you as well. I know. I just got to do... Once we get through the NBA third round, I'm going to really dive into Zodiac and we'll be ready. All right. You can watch and listen to Mallory and House of R. You can watch

[2:11:38] and listen to Jason on Wait a Second. Great to see you both. It was fun to see you on the same screen. An absolute delight. [2:11:46] Thanks, guys. [2:11:48] Bye, guys. [2:11:49] All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney. Thanks to Jason and Mallory. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. [2:11:55] Don't forget to watch Animal House this weekend because that is going to be the next rewatchable. [2:12:00] on Monday. Get ready for that one. Enjoy the weekend. I'm going to be live on Netflix Sunday night after the basketball game, which is going to be [2:12:11] Game four. [2:12:12] Spurs. [2:12:14] Thunder. I hope [2:12:15] I hope we have enough guys left on each team for an awesome game. Anyway, enjoy the weekend. I'll see you on Sunday night. [2:12:21] Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gave them a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE. [2:12:51] or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. [2:12:57] Feel the rush. Live thoroughbred racing is happening now at Laurel Park, the player's track. Every Friday through Sunday, the gates open at 11 a.m. and the action starts at noon. Free admission, fast-paced racing, and real wagering excitement from start to finish. Pick your horses, place your bets, chase the win. From live racing and simulcast action to great food, special events, and nonstop sports viewing, Laurel Park is where the action lives. Come, win, play. Visit laurelpark.com.

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